Why character sheets are prisons

[Finarvyn]

This happened to pop up on my news feed. I know nothing about the guy but he seems to think a lot like I do about character sheets. His basic thesis is that busy character sheets are a "what I can't do" list, since players look at their sheets and if something isn't on it they assume it's something they can't do. Around 9 minutes. Thought I would share.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=UwPnhr2b8VU

EDIT: I will confess that after the video I bought his $4 "Deathbringer" rules set from DriveThru. Some neat ideas, but it's only 3 pages plus a character sheet. I can comment further if there is interest.

[mgtremaine]

I totally get what he is saying, my comment is that in all my truly long campaigns the Characters sheet stop being and "reference" and more a journal of the game. So many notes about places, people, creatures, research ideas, even the old monsters killed list is archeological trove of our middle school games... So stats and abilities, keep it simple, sure... But don't be afraid to have a folder and lots of blank paper for your story awaits. ;p

-Mike

[tkdco2]

I'm a long-time fan of Professor Dungeon Master. He has a lot of good ideas, including how to simplify the game. IIRC, he currently runs 5e, but he tries to run it the old-school way.

[captainjapan]

Professor Dungeon master is advocating the same thing that most (old school) dungeon masters hope for at the table - lots of DM fiat. No surprises, here.

The current game sells many copies to players who will not answer the call to DM. The players' character sheets are the fulfillment of their creative impulse and contain defenses against the arbitrary calls of the DM. Sure, it is limiting to have reams of very specific items and skills, because that discourages players from attempting new, unspecified feats. On the other hand, the complex character sheet empowers players to play against the attitudes or guidance of a restrictive DM, since the designers (a higher authority) have provided consistent odds for performing many tasks that are always there in the open for the players to judge for themselves.

Publishers who understand that there are many more potential customers apt to make a fiction out of a character's traits than out of a homebrew fantasy world will sell more books.

[tombowings]

I'm so glad every time I see someone playing the game in a new way.

[Deleted]

Jun 10, 2022 15:49:09 GMT -6 mgtremaine said:

I totally get what he is saying, my comment is that in all my truly long campaigns the Characters sheet stop being and "reference" and more a journal of the game. So many notes about places, people, creatures, research ideas, even the old monsters killed list is archeological trove of our middle school games... So stats and abilities, keep it simple, sure... But don't be afraid to have a folder and lots of blank paper for your story awaits. ;p

-Mike

There's even a whole page for the character record in the Rules Cyclopedia that acts as a journal or campaign record. 

[Finarvyn]

Jun 10, 2022 15:49:09 GMT -6 mgtremaine said:

I totally get what he is saying, my comment is that in all my truly long campaigns the Characters sheet stop being and "reference" and more a journal of the game. So many notes about places, people, creatures, research ideas, even the old monsters killed list is archeological trove of our middle school games... So stats and abilities, keep it simple, sure... But don't be afraid to have a folder and lots of blank paper for your story awaits. ;p

-Mike

Agreed, but in my mind character history (monster kills, NPCs encountered, whatever) doesn't count as part of the "character sheet" even if is written on the same piece of paper.

[geoffrey]

I hate character sheets. I wouldn't take them for free. This is what I insist upon using for writing down information about my character:

[Finarvyn]

Nice! My go-to was always the 3x5" notecard, but I can see the utility of notebook paper. (Just not the spiral pages. Those fringy things are sort of annoying.

[geoffrey]

I would be good with using a notecard, but I'm afraid that I would lose the little thing.

[jeffb]

My fave character sheet is the one someone did for C&C that looks like notebook paper. I'd love to have one like this for OD&D/S&W and 13th Age.

direct link to PDF on Dragonsfoot

[tkdco2]

My last post seems to have gotten lost. I mentioned I still use sheets of paper of various sizes and index cards for characters. Index cards are my preferred character sheets for the original Traveller rpg.

I have a Delving Deeper character sheet that has the notebook look. I can't remember where I got it.

[waysoftheearth]

Taking a step back, it might be interesting to think what a real-world "character sheet" could look like. Prolly, it would be something like a military record, police rap sheet, government Dosier, academic record, career CV, or the like. All these things have some personal identity information followed by some type of historical list/record of achievements, activities, and/or associations.

Bringing it back to D&D-land, the various PC sheets out there seem to have two broad types of information on them: 1) fictional information, and 2) meta/game information.

1) The fictional information is anything that the PC knows or which otherwise exists in the fiction. The PC's name, race, languages, spells, equipment, treasure, friends/foes, relationships with institutions, history of activities and/or achievements would all be in this category. It's all stuff the PC would (or could) know. This information is agnostic of any particular ruleset and is itself meaningful in the fiction. It's interesting that this is broadly the kind of information we see on the real-world character sheet analogues too.

2) The meta/game information is often categories, numbers and adjustments in terms of a game ruleset; things the player knows but the character does not. Ability scores and modifiers, experience points, hit points, attack matrices, skill adjustments, target numbers, etc. are examples. It's the game "crunch" and it's usually specific to a specific ruleset. It might have to be translated to move it from one game to another. Generally, this kind of information doesn't appear on real-world character sheet analogues because it's a game rules construct (as opposed to a game fiction construct).

Recognising that, it should be an easy thing to mark all the fictional information on any particular PC sheet in with a green highlighter, and all the meta/game information on that sheet with a yellow highlighter in order to observe whether the preponderance of information on any specific PC sheet is fictional or meta/gamey.

I'll hazard (why not?) that perhaps fictional information on PC sheets is generally "good for game" (or at least, good for the OD&D-esque RPG flavour of game), whereas an over-reliance on meta/gamey information on character sheets is specifically what the video commentator is critical of. Sure, we probably do need some meta information on a character sheet (tracking hit points and experience points, say) to meet specific games needs. Perhaps a useful exercise would be a identify a (short) list of meta information that players should have on their character sheets, versus all the other meta information which could either be eliminated or left to the ref ..?

Here's a thought: How about a character sheet with 1) exclusively fictional information on the front-side, for the player to see/use during the adventure, and 2) exclusively meta/gamey information on the back-side, for the player to track/develop between adventures? We'd have to agree on who should track hit points but it's all good fun to think about

[DungeonDevil]

I still have nostalgic feelings about the OG AD&D character sheets, although I admit, when I was new to the game, the sight of it sent me into paroxysms of mental anguish for its complexity.
My current philosophy is the elegant simplicity of the 3x5" index card.

Or how's about a credit-card-sized data sheet that can be slipped into a shirt-pocket or back pocket. I have a jeweller's loupe, so I can reduce an entire PC sheet plus all relevant tables and charts to 1 pt font. Then I can put it into a syringe and inject it into the arterial system of the patient. Oh, wait. That's Fantastic Voyage. My bad.

[tdenmark]

Jun 11, 2022 11:52:46 GMT -6 geoffrey said:

I hate character sheets. I wouldn't take them for free. This is what I insist upon using for writing down information about my character:

I find that sheet WAY too complicated with a lot of unnecessary lines. This is my preferred character sheet:

[tkdco2]

Index cards are great for OD&D For AD&D the notebook paper would be better because you need it for extra info.

[tdenmark]

Jun 12, 2022 22:25:13 GMT -6 tkdco2 said:

Index cards are great for OD&D For AD&D the notebook paper would be better because you need it for extra info.

Or more index cards.

[hamurai]

Jun 11, 2022 11:52:46 GMT -6 geoffrey said:

I hate character sheets. I wouldn't take them for free. This is what I insist upon using for writing down information about my character:

Can we get a form-fillable PDF, please?  

But back to topic:

I agree that character sheets are as prisons to many players - but the DM may help them out. Sure, there may be skills on the sheet and players might be tempted to select the option with the biggest chance for success, but the DM can give the players an atmosphere of security and trust in their instincts, a feeling that as long as they don't behave simply stupid, the DM will go along with their action and tell them what happens, no rolls needed. Of course, a game system which doesn't imprison the players' minds in the first place is always a good way to get a player relying on their wits instead of their character sheets.

I mostly blame computer RPGs for this development in player attitude, as in computer games the character sheet actually usually is just exactly that which you can do. Many people who try P&P RPGs have prior experience with computer RPGs and are already "tainted" - but again, I say it's the DM's job to give the players the security they need to accept that their imagination is the key, or their role-playing concept for their character, or whatever.

And really, a lot of that development started with Greyhawk already: The Thief class has the thief abilities which made people think that other character can't do these things. Personally, I think that a good explanation of these abilities compared to what other characters can do would have helped avoid that issue.

And to come back to the video: Prof DM mentions that the target number for a check depends on the PC's class.
So while one character may succeed at a 10, others would need a 15.
I've said it before, but I'll mention it again that I don't stop at that, and that in my "old school" games even the ability scores are relative to class - so a FM with STR 13 will be stronger than a MU with STR 13, which may just be a result of the FM's training to better utilize their strength, which is in line with respective bonuses to hit and damage rolls which only apply to FM/Fighters in many rule sets.

[Finarvyn]

Jun 15, 2022 13:58:54 GMT -6 hamurai said:

[Can we get a form-fillable PDF, please?

Not a PDF and not a sheet of notebook paper, but I've used notecards for years and finally threw together a Word doc for what looks like a note card but you can add in extra stuff. (The sheet has front side with lines, back side blank but space to type stuff.) Attached is a version without all of the extras attached, so just a "note card" on paper.

Attachments:

Fin ODD notecard characher sheet.docx (17.72 KB)

[hamurai]

Actually, it was meant as a joke, but then I remembered I had used "character sheets" similar to your notecard in a con game some years ago, which worked nicely. The players, mostly completely new to roleplaying games or at least new to OSR games, soon mostly forgot the little sheet of paper in their hands and just looked at the map and at their notes.
Notecards also save a lot of space on the table. Back then, I had a full dungeon battlemap of "Portal under the Stars" (DCC) on the table and ran it with S&W Continual Light.

Finarvyn , I'll probably translate that notecard of yours into German and use it in the next game.

Thanks for sharing!

[hamurai]

And here's the German version, for those interested


docs.google.com/document/d/1sQwkd0BMfArjjzeWPuzVfYekja7nEaRb/edit?usp=sharing&ouid=117897553292926414090&rtpof=true&sd=true

(I can't attach it directly.)