Your dislike(s) of game prep

[derv]

As a GM, what part of prep for a campaign or regular gaming session do you dislike doing? And why do you dislike or avoid doing it?

[Deleted]

It's not so much disliking certain things, but realizing through practice that certain things can be painted in broad strokes and filled in later as need be. For instance, mentioning faraway places with interesting names and implications early on in a campaign. Some DMs will go ahead and have full maps and NPC rosters for those places. Encounters, fully stocked dungeons, etc. For me, unless that's the direction they're actively going in, it's just a skeletal little description in my notes at first. Especially if it's hundreds of miles away or on another continent or plane of existence. It's a name that gives the impression that "Oh, this is a big, interesting world with lots of places to see." Kind of fills in the empty spaces, but it doesn't have to be a lot of extra prep unless I want it to be or it looks like it's going that way.

[Starbeard]

There's nothing I expressly dislike, but I've grown less interested or anxious about lots of things, like pre-rolling hit points. That's what hit dice are for, so you can roll to see how many they have if it becomes relevant. If you have to keep track of a whole bunch of them, then they're all the median rounded up, until there are few enough combatants left to make individual hit points manageable.

[derv]

I mean "dislike" in the mildest of ways. Perhaps it would be better to say, find tedious, bothersome, or monotonous. Or even, would describe as an uninspiring task that can be a challenge to fulfill.

[tedopon]

I only prep after the players have shown interest in something. Locations, NPCs and "plot" are either just some keywords on a page or made up on the spot. I will only do "prep work" after they have started pointing at something and I realize I can stretch it out into a game element. Players being interested in something is the only way I don't find prep work excruciating. I have been at most points on the spectrum of "zero prep all improvisation" to micromanagement of every detail of an environment and I find that I am doing my best as a GM when I do a little prep after they've shown me what they want. Side benefit is I am not spending a bunch of time and energy detailing things that will be ignored or not even come up.

[Finarvyn]

My crew is playing a lot more 5E nowadays, and that stuff takes more prep time than old school.

Lots of stuff to read. Old modules were thin things, new ones are thick hardbacks.

[Deleted]

Feb 25, 2022 19:17:07 GMT -6 Finarvyn said:

My crew is playing a lot more 5E nowadays, and that stuff takes more prep time than old school.

Lots of stuff to read. Old modules were thin things, new ones are thick hardbacks.

Yeah.. I remember running 5e. That was rough, especially at higher levels. Luckily I know plenty of people passionate about OD&D now and I can run what I like!

[howandwhy99]

I like most of it. Studying some content a player wants included but I find dull can be tough. I guess the hardest thing is double-checking the math and making sure I didn't make any mistakes. Which is time consuming and tedious, but necessary.

[Starbeard]

Actually, that 5e thing is something that qualifies. One of the reasons I stopped actively running campaigns in a number of games I otherwise have fond memories of was the sheer drudgery of having to crunch every NPC and confirm every skill procedure. "Brigand with spear" is so much easier that it's hard to look back.

[tombowings]

Feb 25, 2022 21:22:41 GMT -6 howandwhy99 said:

I like most of it. Studying some content a player wants included but I find dull can be tough. I guess the hardest thing is double-checking the math and making sure I didn't make any mistakes. Which is time consuming and tedious, but necessary.

My philosophy is that if math needs to be double checked, the system is too complicated.

[waysoftheearth]

Feb 25, 2022 21:22:41 GMT -6 howandwhy99 said:

I guess the hardest thing is double-checking the math and making sure I didn't make any mistakes. Which is time consuming and tedious, but necessary.

Which math are we talking about here?
Why is it "necessary" that everything is perfectly correct? Or... what would be the consequence of an occasional mistake slipping thru?

[tedopon]

Feb 26, 2022 1:28:19 GMT -6 Starbeard said:

Actually, that 5e thing is something that qualifies. One of the reasons I stopped actively running campaigns in a number of games I otherwise have fond memories of was the sheer drudgery of having to crunch every NPC and confirm every skill procedure. "Brigand with spear" is so much easier that it's hard to look back.

I run 5e in a round robin group shared campaign and I approach it the same way I do 0e. When we started the campaign I told everyone "I will just ignore 5e rules I don't care about when it's my turn." I use monsters from the Chris Perkins 5e port and even though I am very familiar with 5e rules having played it for years because that's what most people play now, I just handwave rules and it runs pretty similar to older D&D. It works fine. Not for everybody, but it works when the group is less concerned about mechanics and more about having fun. I have played with several people over the years who would have an aneurysm if they played like that, though.
The same group played a shared Pathfinder campaign years ago and I did the same thing. Pathfinder was not nearly as forgiving...we would houserule something to simplify it and realize over the next few sessions that we had altered the math on a dozen other related things and it was a mess. 5e for all its faults IMO at least is much more amenable to house rules and handwaving than most other recent versions of D&D.

[derv]

What if I would qualify the OP a little more by saying, if you had to do everything from scratch. That is, no third party material would be used besides the rules themselves.

[tedopon]

Maps are one of the things that I have to know it will be used before I commit. I love drawing maps, but when I think about how many I've drawn over the years that barely got used or didn't get used at all tempers my willingness to spend time drawing them. It's not like I'm going to make a coffee table book of crudely drawn fantasy maps as a conversation starter when I'm entertaining guests.

[tetramorph]

Feb 26, 2022 8:00:50 GMT -6 derv said:

What if I would qualify the OP a little more by saying, if you had to do everything from scratch. That is, no third party material would be used besides the rules themselves.

Maps.

For whatever reason I am just (or I perceive myself to be) not very good at mapping -- either underworld or wilderness.

My underworlds look like a big square with lots of other little square rooms in it connected by a bunch of little passages. I cannot seem to produce a creative structure out of my own mind. I always draw somebody else's map from online - like Dyson Logos - especially his older stuff.

My wildernesses just don't feel sparse, desolate and spaghetti western enough. Always feels boring. So I use the OS board (well, that is in the rules, so I guess that is allowed per your modified OP), or JG wilder lands materials.

If I have a map, I can make up some pretty cool s--t with just my own imagination interacting with the random tables within the 3LLBs.

[rsdean]

Oops. Lost a reply somehow …

5e is at the ragged edge of my ability to tolerate complexity; 3e was definitely over. OD&D is graven on my brain these days, as is Classic Traveller.

Anyway, I like painting miniatures, and I have been enjoying drawing regional and settlement maps, but I am having a hard time imagining stocking at OD&D dungeon any more. I suppose I could buy something, but I really haven’t done much of that, even when playing regularly.

[howandwhy99]

Feb 26, 2022 5:06:56 GMT -6 waysoftheearth said:

Feb 25, 2022 21:22:41 GMT -6 howandwhy99 said:

I guess the hardest thing is double-checking the math and making sure I didn't make any mistakes. Which is time consuming and tedious, but necessary.

Which math are we talking about here?
Why is it "necessary" that everything is perfectly correct? Or... what would be the consequence of an occasional mistake slipping thru?

Everything. Creating stuff for the game so it is properly rated. Monsters, magic items, spells, equipment, even dungeon levels and wilderness areas.

Edit: The balancing is mostly for player gameplay and accurate scoring of XP. Players judging the difficulty of stuff in the game on whether to mess with it. Or the value for bartering, trade, or potential future utility if it is too powerful now.

[Finarvyn]

I get it for the accuracy. Part of me says that getting the numbers "right" isn't that important, but another part feels like the numbers SHOULD all be correct.

[tedopon]

Feb 26, 2022 12:28:31 GMT -6 Finarvyn said:

I get it for the accuracy. Part of me says that getting the numbers "right" isn't that important, but another part feels like the numbers SHOULD all be correct.

I don't really care. I know 90% or more of the time as a player anyone else running the game has a million things on their plate and either through human error or willful disregard they are getting things "wrong" often. Why should the rules be any different when we ourselves are running the game? It's not like we are designing scientific instruments or running a corporation, we are pretending to be elves. The only metric that matters at the end of the session is whether people had a good time...and I have had a great time "winning" and I have had a great time "losing" and I have had a great time just screwing around laughing while playing these games. Balance on the spreadsheet never factored in to any of those positive experiences...and I think the converse is true meaning that several bad times I have had playing rpgs boiled down to strict rules interpretations or "system mastery" that were unwarranted and poorly executed because of the inability of the GM to read the room.

EDIT: and to be clear, I understand the need to be fair and impartial, that's not what I am commenting on...more just the fact that there is a time and place to be fair and impartial but in my experience that is more like the proverbial broken watch being correct twice a day rather than a requirement for the game to function at all times.

[simrion]

I love prep but real life prevents much of that for me. If I had unlimited personal time without the demands of work and family I'd create a grand tapestry of a campaign just for my own edification. Sadly, for now, it's not meant to be so I wing it and/or adapt preexisting adventures to my needs.

[derv]

Re math and getting it right, I find this to be more of a procedural issue than a prep issue in most cases where it matters. The problem arises during play and its implications can be a matter of a PC's success or failure. As an impartial GM it seems prudent to make things right if we can.

An option that some use to mitigate this sort of thing from happening is the simplification of a procedure. What comes to mind is the myriad alternatives to encumbrance and movement, as an example. I'm sure you can think of others.

Myself, I tend to feel compelled to break the flow of whatever is unfolding in the game if it seems I have made a fatal error that could be game changing for a character. You know, you lost track of who struck the last blow sort of thing or failed to note the reduction of a monsters total hp's after a successful hit. Or you reference the wrong table and give them a better probability of hitting which results in them seriously wounding a character when they shouldn't have. None of this has ever actually happened to me when I've been a ref though

[tetramorph]

In terms of math: I have found that my lairs and dungeons are far better when I front end the treasure. Before I figure out a single monster, trap or puzzle, if I determine treasure first, everything else flows so much better.

Recently the characters decided they wanted to hunt dragons. (One of the lead amazons had acquired a +2 vs. dragons sword, so, there you go.) They found out there was a Green Dragon lair on one island and a Red Dragon on another (JG Wilderlands 11. Ghinor). They decided Green would be a better start (although there are three!). So I needed a Greed Dragon lair.

I looked for a Dyson Logos map with a lair on an Island and found one. The next thing I did was roll up a dragon treasure. I determined the nature of the gems and jewelry to see if any would be famous. I determined magic items to see if anyone would be famous. Combining the JG description of the island, Logos' map and the famous treasure and magic items, a theme already began to emerge.

Used the JG material to roll up an interesting ancient forgotten goddess for the temple: Menemusae Petty Goddess of Sea Knowledge revered by the sailors of the Silver Age Ghinorian Successor States. A reincarnation theme emerged. That gives me the altar. Now I need clues. I need another lesser monster threat. Trolls are green. Rolled three. Why are they there? How are they keeping their treasure from the dragons? There was a tomb on Logos' map. Obviously the wight of the last of the line of the ancient high priests of Menemusae Goddess of Sea Knowledge. Etc. How are the doors locked? Brass doors with center rolling water-lock. How do the secret doors work? One of them only opens in the light of the Moon (sacred to Menemusae). Trap at the entrance: chlorine gas (obviously). The whole thing just unfolds like an ink-blot test.

Then I hooked it into their research of the place. I love the joy the players take when they feel they have discovered something (that days ago was just a random roll of dice). Two characters die fighting the trolls. They push on. They figure out the puzzle that opens and ancient ebony treasure box. "This must be that famous magic sword from the Golden Age!" "The gods made this one." "Who wants to touch it? I better not!"

Love. This. Game.

[doublejig2]

Feb 27, 2022 15:59:03 GMT -6 tetramorph said:

In terms of math: I have found that my lairs and dungeons are far better when I front end the treasure. Before I figure out a single monster, trap or puzzle, if I determine treasure first, everything else flows so much better.

Recently the characters decided they wanted to hunt dragons. (One of the lead amazons had acquired a +2 vs. dragons sword, so, there you go.) They found out there was a Green Dragon lair on one island and a Red Dragon on another (JG Wilderlands 11. Ghinor). They decided Green would be a better start (although there are three!). So I needed a Greed Dragon lair.

I looked for a Dyson Logos map with a lair on an Island and found one. The next thing I did was roll up a dragon treasure. I determined the nature of the gems and jewelry to see if any would be famous. I determined magic items to see if anyone would be famous. Combining the JG description of the island, Logos' map and the famous treasure and magic items, a theme already began to emerge.

Used the JG material to roll up an interesting ancient forgotten goddess for the temple: Menemusae Petty Goddess of Sea Knowledge revered by the sailors of the Silver Age Ghinorian Successor States. A reincarnation theme emerged. That gives me the altar. Now I need clues. I need another lesser monster threat. Trolls are green. Rolled three. Why are they there? How are they keeping their treasure from the dragons? There was a tomb on Logos' map. Obviously the wight of the last of the line of the ancient high priests of Menemusae Goddess of Sea Knowledge. Etc. How are the doors locked? Brass doors with center rolling water-lock. How do the secret doors work? One of them only opens in the light of the Moon (sacred to Menemusae). Trap at the entrance: chlorine gas (obviously). The whole thing just unfolds like an ink-blot test.

Then I hooked it into their research of the place. I love the joy the players take when they feel they have discovered something (that days ago was just a random roll of dice). Two characters die fighting the trolls. They push on. They figure out the puzzle that opens and ancient ebony treasure box. "This must be that famous magic sword from the Golden Age!" "The gods made this one." "Who wants to touch it? I better not!"

Love. This. Game.

Awesome post!

[doublejig2]

I came across this excellent table on Erin D. Smale's excellent website: welshpiper.com; village table is found here: 69 villages. At that site are other superior sandbox articles, for example. Echoing perhaps WLHF tables, is the table below a missing link?

"About that village or other site... Is it: "
Roll 1d10 + 1d6:
1: Last reported location of (d6: 1 deadly assassin; 2 ruthless fugitive; 3 reviled sorcerer; 4 angelic guardian; 5 alien creature; 6 notorious rogue)
2: Rumoured to be final resting place of (d6: 1 renowned hero; 2 secretive wizard; 3 brilliant sage; 4 legendary king; 5 righteous cleric; 6 wandering prophet)
3: There’s an abundance of (d6: 1 delicious game; 2 rich soil; 3 plant-enriching bugs; 4 rare alchemical ingredients; 5 natural construction materials; 6 beneficial waters)
4: Nearby ruins are (d6: 1 haunted; 2 a hideout for bandits; 3 a monster’s lair; 4 the site of horrible ancient rituals; 5 the domicile of a mad hermit (aren’t they all?); 6 an illusion)
5: Water/ground tainted by (d6: 1 blood; 2 ichor; 3 salt; 4 oil; 5 non-human remains; 6 acid)

6: Plagued by (d6: 1 constant insect swarms; 2 creepy little mammals; 3 flocks of beady-eyed carrion birds; 4 spiny hissing reptiles; 5 infestation of imps, gremlins, or other troublesome sprites; 6 extra-planar entities interested in a particular group of citizens)
7: Strange feature (d6: 1 anti-magic field(s); 2 inexplicable blight; 3 unnaturally high mortality rate; 4 sunlight casts an odd tint; 5 insistent and disturbing dreams; 6 mutations in newborns)
8: Secret cult trying to (d6: 1 awaken a slumbering god; 2 fulfil a prophecy; 3 lift a curse; 4 divine a secret; 5 weed out the impure; 6 prepare for doom)
9: Crime ring trafficking (d6: 1-2 stolen goods; 3 illegal goods; 4 rare luxuries; 5 non-humans, 6 humans) and led by (d6: 1 random citizen; 2 freeholder; 3 clergy; 4 city official; 5 noble; 6 outsider)
10: Dungeon (d6-1) miles away, consisting of (d6) levels accessed via (d6: 1 a ruined structure; 2 a hole in the earth; 3 someone’s basement; 4 a graveyard; 5 a hole in a riverbed; 6 a magic portal); it’s the remains of a (d6: 1 library; 2 prison; 3 abandoned treasure dig; 4 necropolis; 5 ancient tower; 6 fool’s labour)

[Deleted]

Feb 26, 2022 10:34:25 GMT -6 howandwhy99 said:

Feb 26, 2022 5:06:56 GMT -6 waysoftheearth said:

Which math are we talking about here?
Why is it "necessary" that everything is perfectly correct? Or... what would be the consequence of an occasional mistake slipping thru?

Everything. Creating stuff for the game so it is properly rated. Monsters, magic items, spells, equipment, even dungeon levels and wilderness areas.

Edit: The balancing is mostly for player gameplay and accurate scoring of XP. Players judging the difficulty of stuff in the game on whether to mess with it. Or the value for bartering, trade, or potential future utility if it is too powerful now.

[Deleted]

Feb 27, 2022 9:11:07 GMT -6 tedopon said:

Feb 26, 2022 12:28:31 GMT -6 Finarvyn said:

I get it for the accuracy. Part of me says that getting the numbers "right" isn't that important, but another part feels like the numbers SHOULD all be correct.

I don't really care. I know 90% or more of the time as a player anyone else running the game has a million things on their plate and either through human error or willful disregard they are getting things "wrong" often. Why should the rules be any different when we ourselves are running the game? It's not like we are designing scientific instruments or running a corporation, we are pretending to be elves. The only metric that matters at the end of the session is whether people had a good time...and I have had a great time "winning" and I have had a great time "losing" and I have had a great time just screwing around laughing while playing these games. Balance on the spreadsheet never factored in to any of those positive experiences...and I think the converse is true meaning that several bad times I have had playing rpgs boiled down to strict rules interpretations or "system mastery" that were unwarranted and poorly executed because of the inability of the GM to read the room.

EDIT: and to be clear, I understand the need to be fair and impartial, that's not what I am commenting on...more just the fact that there is a time and place to be fair and impartial but in my experience that is more like the proverbial broken watch being correct twice a day rather than a requirement for the game to function at all times.

Total agreement with this.

[scottenkainen]

I don't always roll monster hit points in advance anymore.

[machfront]

All of it. LOL
Seriously, though. It’s my responsibility to at LEAST handle the general area, ideas, atmosphere, etc.
But, to be brutally honest, I’m not just a lazy GM, I’m worse,
However, I also love playing, too, so I really dig being just as surprised as the players are, so I love random tables (though, not too many, as I’ll get overwhelmed easy). I dig the old, far, far before my time Judges Guild Ready Ref Sheets book, or modern resources like it, such as the D30 stuff from New Big Dragon, or even tiny one or two page resources from wherever….here included.

I basically think basic and broad. I’ve never, ever ‘statted’ an NPC or even a major baddie. I’m all….this guy is Sean Bean from the movie Ronin….or….this dude knows this or that spell that he will rely on, and that’s pretty much it.

I ran a five year long, old school Tunnels & Trolls game about ten years ago that lasted around about four or five years. Longest of my entire life of gaming and to this day,
At the end….after ALL that time….the entirety of my campaign notes was quite literally a few spiral notebook sheets with stuff written here and there, even so randomly that some was writ diagonally here and there. That’s all. Like…three pages of essentially scribbled junk….for five years!
That’s how much or how little I care about prep….which is say….zero. I’d rather be as surprised as they are….also I don’t care and don’t have time to.

[Mordorandor]

I’d rather be as surprised as they are….

This. The referee can “play” too! That’s my approach. Love getting crazy results in-play that challenge me on what comes next.

That Goblin pouch … inside is … [roll, roll] 3 SP and a gem … the gem is worth … hold on … [roll, roll] … 100,000 GP! What?! Now what is that all about?! 😀