Lowest level spell vs. golems

[delta]

It looks like we have a consensus that any golem is immune to magic effects in general (link), and also that golems can be defeated by an elemental brought forth by a spell (link).

So given those premises, we accept that a wizard can effectively combat a golem via the 5th-level spell, conjure elemental. And it's likely that many DMs would also accept other 5th-level spells removing a golem's threat, such as possibly transmute rock to mud, wall of stone, and wall of iron.

Now, is there any lower-level spell that a magic-user can use to neutralize a golem? What is the lowest level of any such spell that you can identify?

Please leave a comment specifying the particular spell you have in mind. Assume any spell from the magic-user list in Supplement-I: Greyhawk is available. Also assume that the encounter is taking place in a standard dungeon environment, if that makes a difference.

[Desparil]

I voted for 5th level since you specified to neutralize the golem, but in a broader discussion I would say that a 2nd-level Web spell would buy you 2 turns to evade the golem.
Or if you have a high ceiling (or an outdoor encounter), a fighter companion, and a sufficient supply of magic arrows (or a Dancing Sword or a War Hammer +3 in the hands of a dwarf, or possible a magic spear depending on how the DM rules melee attack reach), then a 3rd-level Fly spell will trivialize a golem - preferably with an extra Fly or Levitate spell to keep the magic-user safe as well while the fighter chips away.
More generally, depending on circumstances, various spells starting as early as Levitate (or even Spider Climb, if adding PHB spells) can allow the means of evading or bypassing a golem.

[waysoftheearth]

Feb 14, 2022 23:57:14 GMT -6 delta said:

Now, is there any lower-level spell that a magic-user can use to neutralize a golem? What is the lowest level of any such spell that you can identify?

What about Protection from Evil?

<<This spell hedges the conjurer round with a magic circle to keep out attacks from enchanted monsters.>>

Is a golem an "enchanted monster"?

<<Golems are created by ultra-powerful (or ultra-knowledgable) Magic-Users.>>

[delta]

Feb 15, 2022 4:28:55 GMT -6 waysoftheearth said:

Is a golem an "enchanted monster"?

Greyhawk actually does say as much in the description of arrows of slaying:

Basic types would be: Giant Class, Undead Class, Flying Monsters, Other Monsters, Enchanted Monsters (Invisible Stalkers, Elementals, Golems, Aerial Servants, and so on).

[waysoftheearth]

Yyyyeah. So, I'd have to conclude that a protection from evil spell would prevent a golem from directly attacking the MU. It could still be dangerous indirectly, but that's a whole different discussion

Not sure if I should vote level 1, since it depends a bit on what you really mean by "neutralize".

[Desparil]

Feb 15, 2022 23:44:42 GMT -6 waysoftheearth said:

Yyyyeah. So, I'd have to conclude that a protection from evil spell would prevent a golem from directly attacking the MU. It could still be dangerous indirectly, but that's a whole different discussion

Not sure if I should vote level 1, since it depends a bit on what you really mean by "neutralize".

I would conclude the opposite, that a golem is unaffected by magic and therefore a magical aura of protection is no impediment to it. The way I see it, only a physical impediment such as a web or a stone wall can inconvenience it.

[waysoftheearth]

Interesting. I suppose it comes down to who is affected by the protection from evil spell. If the pfe spell affects the M-U, then the golem's immunity to spells is arguably irrelevant. If, on the other hand, the pfe spell affects the golem, then it could be argued the golem is immune to the pfe spell. However, even that isn't logically air tight. We'd have to resolve the logical contradiction that a pfe spell affects enchanted monsters, but the golem (an enchanted monster) is immue to spells. So which is it? A ref could decide either way which axiom takes precedence in any given campaign.

Fun times

[Mordorandor]

Feb 14, 2022 23:57:14 GMT -6 delta said:

It looks like we have a consensus that any golem is immune to magic effects in general (link), and also that golems can be defeated by an elemental brought forth by a spell (link).

So given those premises, we accept that a wizard can effectively combat a golem via the 5th-level spell, conjure elemental. And it's likely that many DMs would also accept other 5th-level spells removing a golem's threat, such as possibly transmute rock to mud, wall of stone, and wall of iron.

Now, is there any lower-level spell that a magic-user can use to neutralize a golem? What is the lowest level of any such spell that you can identify?

Please leave a comment specifying the particular spell you have in mind. Assume any spell from the magic-user list in Supplement-I: Greyhawk is available. Also assume that the encounter is taking place in a standard dungeon environment, if that makes a difference.

As noted, depending on ...

- what is meant by "neutralize"
- which kind of Golem we're talking about
- how many HP the Golem might have

... a magic missile spell can kill/neutralize a Flesh Golem in one turn.

Magic Missile: This is a conjured missile equivalent to a magic arrow, and it does full damage (2-7 points) to any creature it strikes. For every five levels the magic-user has attained he may add an additional two missiles when employing this spell, so a 6th level magic-user may cast three magic missiles at his target, an 11th level magic-user casts five, and so on. Range 15"

If by "neutralize," one means something like "effectively prevent the Golem from harming" someone, a protection from evil spell does that for all Golems.

[delta]

Just looking abroad to 1E, the protection from evil spell seems to have a comprehensive list of creatures affected, and golems aren't among them. On the other hand, the arrow of slaying drops the categories in favor of more finely slicing target types, and golems are specifically one of those types.

[Mordorandor]

Feb 18, 2022 9:32:07 GMT -6 delta said:

Just looking abroad to 1E, the protection from evil spell seems to have a comprehensive list of creatures affected, and golems aren't among them. On the other hand, the arrow of slaying drops the categories in favor of more finely slicing target types, and golems are specifically one of those types.

And looking back to Chainmail v2.

"Protection from Evil: A 12" diameter circle which will keep out all evil fantastic creatures/men."

Which reads like a "protection from fantastic Chaos creatures" spell.

If Golems are read to be Fantastic and aligned to the faction of Chaos, sounds like the spell would neutralize them in Chainmail.

[mgtremaine]

Feb 16, 2022 5:20:51 GMT -6 waysoftheearth said:

Interesting. I suppose it comes down to who is affected by the protection from evil spell. If the pfe spell affects the M-U, then the golem's immunity to spells is arguably irrelevant. If, on the other hand, the pfe spell affects the golem, then it could be argued the golem is immune to the pfe spell. However, even that isn't logically air tight. We'd have to resolve the logical contradiction that a pfe spell affects enchanted monsters, but the golem (an enchanted monster) is immue to spells. So which is it? A ref could decide either way which axiom takes precedence in any given campaign.

Fun times

Never occurred to me but if someone did this at the table I would accept it. So yeah 1st level spell FTW.

-Mike

[Starbeard]

Feb 18, 2022 9:32:07 GMT -6 delta said:

Just looking abroad to 1E, the protection from evil spell seems to have a comprehensive list of creatures affected, and golems aren't among them. On the other hand, the arrow of slaying drops the categories in favor of more finely slicing target types, and golems are specifically one of those types.

The plot thickens. If golems are immune to magic effects in general, yet the arrows of slaying suggest they can be affected by magic that is specifically vs enchanted creatures, then I would have thought PfE ought to do the trick. But the evolution into AD&D suggests the opposite.

Of course, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to learn that the true answer to the first instance is, "Because Gary hadn't thought about it that far," and that the answer to the AD&D instance is, "Because Gary was editing in fast and furious spurts and missed the implied connections between the PHB and DMG."

[cometaryorbit]

I see Protection from Evil as a defensive spell targeting the person protected, so magic immunity (Golem or otherwise) is no help against it. It would prevent a golem from harming the person protected- but to protect the whole party and thus "neutralize" the threat, you'd need the 10' radius version (and maybe multiple castings if the party is too large).

[yesmar]

Feb 15, 2022 4:28:55 GMT -6 waysoftheearth said:

Is a golem an "enchanted monster"?

The enchanted-type monster categorization does indeed include golems. In addition to the brief mention Delta pointed out in Greyhawk, a more complete list can be ascertained from the Enchanted-Type Monsters wilderness wandering monster table found on p. 57 of Eldritch Wizardry.