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Post by retrorob on Feb 4, 2022 8:47:54 GMT -6
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Post by Mushgnome on Feb 4, 2022 9:18:13 GMT -6
The strictest reading of the Men & Magic language rules, is that Dwarves have only a 20% chance to know the Common language! Most Dwarves begin play knowing 5 languages: Dwarf, Gnome, Kobold, Goblin, and their alignment tongue.
If the Dwarf character gets extra languages due to Intelligence, most DM's give them in addition to those 5 (or 6) "free" languages listed above.
A very mean and strict DM might require the Dwarf to "pay for" those languages before they can choose additional languages. For example if a Dwarf wanted to learn the language of Elves, they would have to have an Intelligence of at least 14 (since their first 3 bonus languages must be spent on Gnome, Kobold, and Goblin). I personally don't play it that way.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2022 10:23:31 GMT -6
I assume languages like Gnome and Kobold share a root language with Dwarf and likely share a runic alphabet. Dwarvish is definitely a distinct language of its own.
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Post by retrorob on Feb 4, 2022 11:22:57 GMT -6
MushgnomeAre Dwarves "humans" (technically speaking, demi-humans) or should they be counted among "other creatures"?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2022 12:38:19 GMT -6
MushgnomeAre Dwarves "humans" (technically speaking, demi-humans) or should they be counted among "other creatures"? By 3lbb table logic they're giants lol |
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Post by Mushgnome on Feb 4, 2022 12:51:31 GMT -6
In my own campaigns, all PCs are fluent in Common. It's just easier that way.
I do like the role-playing possibilities, that a certain % of demi-human NPCs might not know Common.
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Post by Desparil on Feb 4, 2022 14:40:23 GMT -6
The strictest reading of the Men & Magic language rules, is that Dwarves have only a 20% chance to know the Common language! Most Dwarves begin play knowing 5 languages: Dwarf, Gnome, Kobold, Goblin, and their alignment tongue. If the Dwarf character gets extra languages due to Intelligence, most DM's give them in addition to those 5 (or 6) "free" languages listed above. A very mean and strict DM might require the Dwarf to "pay for" those languages before they can choose additional languages. For example if a Dwarf wanted to learn the language of Elves, they would have to have an Intelligence of at least 14 (since their first 3 bonus languages must be spent on Gnome, Kobold, and Goblin). I personally don't play it that way. Of note, in AD&D they explicitly get all of those for free, plus Common, Orcish, and any that are due to them for their Intelligence score - but only up to two more, so they're effectively capped at a similar total number of languages as humans are, but only need Intelligence 10 to reach that maximum. A pretty good deal, since they're unable to be a member of any character class that benefits from a high Intelligence anyhow. |
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Post by waysoftheearth on Feb 4, 2022 16:09:59 GMT -6
What I've done in my (relatively) recent campaigns is to assume "the usual tongues" refers to a list/table of languages the dwarf (or any figure) may know according to the alignment table (M&M p9). Hence a lawful or neutral dwarf would use the lawful or neutral column, respectively. A dwarf specifically adds the Gnome, Kobold, and Goblin languages to the list of languages he may know, regardless of his alignment. Then the ref dices a number of times determined by the dwarf's intelligence score to determine the languages each individual dwarf actual does know.
I ended up tweaking the table a bit (e.g., to split dwarf/gnome into individual entries) to make it work nicely. However, I've found this method produces PCs with a diverse mix of languages that players wouldn't ordinarily choose. This can be a boon in making each PC a bit different, and having a queer mix of languages implies all sorts of interesting things about the PC's background that really fires the imagination. E.g., how/why is it that this particular dwarf speaks the tongue of the silver dragons?
edit: from this perspective, each entry in the alignment table implies a language, so there would be dwarf and hobbit tongues.
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Post by delta on Feb 6, 2022 14:27:50 GMT -6
MushgnomeAre Dwarves "humans" (technically speaking, demi-humans) or should they be counted among "other creatures"? It can be argued either way. E.g., in Vol-2 the mirror of life trapping text says it, "traps the life-force of any human (including Elves, Dwarves and Gnomes) who looks into it". |
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Post by retrorob on Feb 6, 2022 14:34:21 GMT -6
Mushgnome Are Dwarves "humans" (technically speaking, demi-humans) or should they be counted among "other creatures"? It can be argued either way. E.g., in Vol-2 the mirror of life trapping text says it, "traps the life-force of any human (including Elves, Dwarves and Gnomes) who looks into it". No Hobbits, hm? Dwarves can also be raised from the dead: |
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Post by retrorob on Feb 6, 2022 14:56:52 GMT -6
If the Dwarf character gets extra languages due to Intelligence, most DM's give them in addition to those 5 (or 6) "free" languages listed above. A very mean and strict DM might require the Dwarf to "pay for" those languages before they can choose additional languages. For example if a Dwarf wanted to learn the language of Elves, they would have to have an Intelligence of at least 14 (since their first 3 bonus languages must be spent on Gnome, Kobold, and Goblin). I personally don't play it that way. Yeah, me too, but I knew the guy once who ruled it that way. Same for Elves. The languages listed were the languages that Dwarves/Elves could know, if their Intelligence allowed. But if that is how it stands, then I really don't understand what's the advantage here? |
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Post by dicebro on Feb 6, 2022 15:44:42 GMT -6
Mushgnome Are Dwarves "humans" (technically speaking, demi-humans) or should they be counted among "other creatures"? Dwarves are beings that festered like maggots in the flesh of the corpse of the primeaval Ymir before being gifted with reason by the gods. Humans had another origin. Probably just as disgusting. |
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Post by retrorob on Feb 6, 2022 16:07:58 GMT -6
Mushgnome Are Dwarves "humans" (technically speaking, demi-humans) or should they be counted among "other creatures"? Dwarves are beings that festered like maggots in the flesh of the corpse of the primeaval Ymir before being gifted with reason by the gods. Humans had another origin. Probably just as disgusting. As we know from the Eddas, first people were created from tree trunks  |
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Post by waysoftheearth on Feb 6, 2022 16:11:42 GMT -6
Yeah, me too, but I knew the guy once who ruled it that way. Same for Elves. The languages listed were the languages that Dwarves/Elves could know, if their Intelligence allowed. But if that is how it stands, then I really don't understand what's the advantage here? That's how I've done it in recent campaigns. It works out just fine. The "advantage" is that a lawful or neutral dwarf could know the language of his chaotic nemesis race which lawfuls and neutrals generally wouldn't know. |
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Post by retrorob on Feb 6, 2022 16:52:26 GMT -6
Yeah, me too, but I knew the guy once who ruled it that way. Same for Elves. The languages listed were the languages that Dwarves/Elves could know, if their Intelligence allowed. But if that is how it stands, then I really don't understand what's the advantage here? That's how I've done it in recent campaigns. It works out just fine. The "advantage" is that a lawful or neutral dwarf could know the language of his chaotic nemesis race which lawfuls and neutrals generally wouldn't know. But why wouldn't they? I do understand you've combined language with division, but why can't a lawful cleric know kobold or goblin language? In my campaigns Players always choose the languages they would like to know (let's say: mammals, insects, spiders, reptiles, gnolls). For me, the additional languages would be the main reason for playing an elf or a dwarf. The guy I mentioned even compelled dwarves to choose kobold, goblin etc., just like Mushgnome described. So it's better to play human and choose languages freely. |
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Post by waysoftheearth on Feb 6, 2022 17:24:16 GMT -6
I guess it comes down to how you want to model sides/divisions in the campaign. If the sides are all kinda ambiguously mixed together (perhaps like regional "nationalities" in medieval Europe), then it makes sense that it would be easy for, say, a Gascon to learn French, Italian, German, Saxxon, and whatever other dialects.
If, on the other hand, the sides/divisions are more separate/distinct then it might be harder for a medieval Frenchman to learn the tongue of Green Martians whom he has never heard of, let alone encountered, before yesterday.
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Post by retrorob on Feb 7, 2022 4:27:17 GMT -6
Yeah, I get your point. I guess these matters are for each referee to decide As for goblins, kobolds, dwarves, elves, hobgoblins, gnomes, orcs, gnolls etc. I believe they are from the same world/continent, perhaps even sharing the same class, as indicated by the giant-type in Vol. III. Most of them have roots in the same Germanic/Norse mythology and folklore. Additionally, what about 20% for speaking a common tongue by all creatures? I'd say that if a Green Martian is able to speak common tongue (what is common then?), then a medieval Frenchmen can learn Green Martian too. If Law are the Allies and Chaos are Nazis (as per "Three Hearts & Three Lions"), I see no reason why a German soldier couldn't speak French (in fact we know that many of them could). |
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Post by waysoftheearth on Feb 7, 2022 5:06:14 GMT -6
Sure  but perhaps the other comparison would be: how many medieval French foot spoke Mongol, Japanse, Chinese, or Turkish? Perhaps not huge numbers. I agree thou; it's a ref's choice for the campaign. In general, a "Common" language is a game abstraction that enables us to hand-wave language barriers that would otherwise detract from the fun. In practice, it would have to be some kind of lingo that borrows/steals/aggregates elements that are "common enough" to the prominent regional tongues. Whether Common should transcend inter-continental/planetary/dimensional boundaries is an interesting question for sure. The easy option is probably magic spells or Babel fish that make the whole issue moot. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2022 8:25:41 GMT -6
In my game world, the difference between Dwarven and Gnomish is more akin to Swiss vs. Danish than Spanish vs. Mandarin.
Of course your mileage may (and should) vary.
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Post by retrorob on Feb 8, 2022 6:20:33 GMT -6
As I've already mentioned in the Hobbit language thread, skimming through BTPBD, I noticed some valuable info. Same goes for the Dwarves:
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but perhaps the other comparison would be: how many medieval French foot spoke Mongol, Japanse, Chinese, or Turkish? Perhaps not huge numbers.