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Post by tombowings on Nov 22, 2021 23:56:47 GMT -6
I've noticed over the past couple years that stuck doors have had an incredibly positive effect on dungeon exploration. When I have forgone the use of stuck doors, adventures would often retrace the same route through the dungeon, each time delving deeper and further. I would find players becoming bored as they traveled the same stretch of dungeon terrain the sixth or seventh time. They craved excitement and mystery; instead, they found repetition.
Stuck doors have solved this problem for me. With only a 2 in 6 chance that any given door will open, players have often found their way blocked. They are instead forced to explore alternative routes, thereby stumbling upon new sections of the dungeon (sub-levels) they otherwise might have missed completely.
That's my story.
What are your experiences with this oftentimes ignored aspect of the game?
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Post by Finarvyn on Nov 23, 2021 6:01:30 GMT -6
I like the concept. Usually I quickly hand-wave to get them back to where they had been last time, but I really should make them fight their way back out each time and fight their way back in the next time.
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Post by howandwhy99 on Nov 23, 2021 22:22:17 GMT -6
I like your observation. I find stuck doors are rather idiosyncratic and particular to certain dungeon environments, like Greyhawk dungeons.
I have no problem putting them in dungeons. They are a nice brute force solution and indicate the lack of recent travel. I don't go in for the Monsters being able to move through them unimpeded.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2021 14:06:40 GMT -6
I've noticed over the past couple years that stuck doors have had an incredibly positive effect on dungeon exploration. When I have forgone the use of stuck doors, adventures would often retrace the same route through the dungeon, each time delving deeper and further. I would find players becoming bored as they traveled the same stretch of dungeon terrain the sixth or seventh time. They craved excitement and mystery; instead, they found repetition. Stuck doors have solved this problem for me. With only a 2 in 6 chance that any given door will open, players have often found their way blocked. They are instead forced to explore alternative routes, thereby stumbling upon new sections of the dungeon (sub-levels) they otherwise might have missed completely. That's my story. What are your experiences with this oftentimes ignored aspect of the game? While I do use stuck doors, it is not for the reason you present. I am amazed that players would not explore new sections unless they are forced to. If you crave excitement and mystery, you would always be seeking the unexplored areas and not following the same path every time. If players are bored, either the DM is boring or they are choosing to be bored. Assuming a good DM, players that are bored are IMO seeking boredom. |
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Post by tombowings on Nov 24, 2021 23:22:41 GMT -6
While I do use stuck doors, it is not for the reason you present. I am amazed that players would not explore new sections unless they are forced to. If you crave excitement and mystery, you would always be seeking the unexplored areas and not following the same path every time. If players are bored, either the DM is boring or they are choosing to be bored. Assuming a good DM, players that are bored are IMO seeking boredom. While I agree with your point, I feel compelled (rightly or wrongly) to defend my player's instincts. From my players' perspective, they believed (somewhat mistakenly) that lower levels of the dungeon contained more wonder and mystery than the upper layers. While that is theoretically true, the upper levels of my mega-dungeon are much better thought-out and better articulated in room design than the lower levels. Of course, my dungeon should be brilliantly conceived and realized from top to bottom; unfortunately, real life and a non-infinite wellspring of creativity place constraints on my abilities as a referee. |
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Post by dicebro on Nov 25, 2021 10:40:10 GMT -6
What are your experiences with this oftentimes ignored aspect of the game? Stuck doors. My experience is that they can slow the game down because everybody wants to roll the dice to try to open them. I came up with a way to make it go faster. If the door is not stuck, then the party has a chance to surprise monsters on the other side. If it is stuck, then the party gets a choice. 1. They can leave with no harm no foul. Monsters behind the door are not alerted. 2. They can persist. If so, then they open the door in 1d6 turns. No chance to surprise monsters inside. if the door is locked, then I have a different procedure. Cheerio! |
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aramis
Level 4 Theurgist
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Post by aramis on Nov 25, 2021 10:44:33 GMT -6
Given that any dungeon I create is based upon current inhabitants using it, stuck doors are usually stuck for a reason... so my players learn to avoid opening stuck doors.
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Phenster Dragorgn
Level 1 Medium
Creating and playing Dreaming Amon-Gorloth, a dungeon and wilderness adventure campaign using Holmes
Posts: 15
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Post by Phenster Dragorgn on Dec 4, 2021 4:51:53 GMT -6
With only a 2 in 6 chance that any given door will open, players have often found their way blocked. They are instead forced to explore alternative routes, thereby stumbling upon new sections of the dungeon (sub-levels) they otherwise might have missed completely. Love that. Do you allow characters to try again, or, on a failure, is the door just too darn stuck? I've been allowing retries, which prevents surprise should there be something lurking behind the door, increases chances for wandering monsters, and takes more time with successive failures. But I find that allowing retries still slows down the game. Players accept the consequences and keep ramming the door till they get through. It becomes a simple dice rolling exercise. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2021 9:10:22 GMT -6
Retries make sense if failure to open the door makes them truly stuck in a one way passage. Each attempt would be rather loud, though. That's a Wandering Monster roll.
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Post by asaki on Dec 4, 2021 10:11:42 GMT -6
Do you allow characters to try again, or, on a failure, is the door just too darn stuck? I've been allowing retries, which prevents surprise should there be something lurking behind the door, increases chances for wandering monsters, and takes more time with successive failures. That's how I play, as per the rules...but the players still decide "door's stuck, try another one". It kind of took me by surprise. I've had players in other games try to hack open locked doors. |
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Post by tombowings on Dec 4, 2021 11:52:20 GMT -6
With only a 2 in 6 chance that any given door will open, players have often found their way blocked. They are instead forced to explore alternative routes, thereby stumbling upon new sections of the dungeon (sub-levels) they otherwise might have missed completely. Love that. Do you allow characters to try again, or, on a failure, is the door just too darn stuck? I've been allowing retries, which prevents surprise should there be something lurking behind the door, increases chances for wandering monsters, and takes more time with successive failures. But I find that allowing retries still slows down the game. Players accept the consequences and keep ramming the door till they get through. It becomes a simple dice rolling exercise. Originally, I did, but it defeated the purpose. I have now limited open door attempts to once per adventure. However, doors that have been forced open stay open until the adventure ends. |
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Post by delta on Dec 4, 2021 14:45:50 GMT -6
It kind of took me by surprise. So if they can't surprise the monster, they surprise the DM instead. Quality play. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2021 16:02:47 GMT -6
Do you allow characters to try again, or, on a failure, is the door just too darn stuck? I've been allowing retries, which prevents surprise should there be something lurking behind the door, increases chances for wandering monsters, and takes more time with successive failures. That's how I play, as per the rules...but the players still decide "door's stuck, try another one". It kind of took me by surprise. I've had players in other games try to hack open locked doors. Like, locked normally or via the spell? The latter would be hilarious. |
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Post by asaki on Dec 5, 2021 6:15:57 GMT -6
Like, locked normally or via the spell? The latter would be hilarious. Locked normally. IIRC it was 3rd Edition, and I was super new to DMing, so I just let him keep trying to chop it down...no wandering monsters or nothing! Ran the same adventure with a different group of friends, and they tricked a dragon into entering the dungeon and torching everything in sight. It was a lot more exciting. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2021 6:45:02 GMT -6
Like, locked normally or via the spell? The latter would be hilarious. Locked normally. IIRC it was 3rd Edition, and I was super new to DMing, so I just let him keep trying to chop it down...no wandering monsters or nothing! Ran the same adventure with a different group of friends, and they tricked a dragon into entering the dungeon and torching everything in sight. It was a lot more exciting. Monsters being manipulated into clearing a path is a tried and true D&D success/catastrophe formula for sure. |
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Post by hamurai on Dec 6, 2021 0:36:39 GMT -6
I've once played as I believed is RAW, that you get 1 chance to open a stuck door and that's it. The dungeon ended rather quickly because too many doors were stuck and the party couldn't proceed any further without running into ridiculously dangerous encounters. That's what blindly following rules and random tables gets you sometimes  It was a one-shot adventure/dungeon crawl to try OD&D as close to the books as possible. Now, I do use stuck doors in my very old school games, but I tend to give the players a +1 to force doors for each door they failed to force open. |
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Post by tombowings on Dec 6, 2021 1:41:05 GMT -6
I've once played as I believed is RAW, that you get 1 chance to open a stuck door and that's it. The dungeon ended rather quickly because too many doors were stuck and the party couldn't proceed any further without running into ridiculously dangerous encounters. That's what blindly following rules and random tables gets you sometimes It was a one-shot adventure/dungeon crawl to try OD&D as close to the books as possible. Now, I do use stuck doors in my very old school games, but I tend to give the players a +1 to force doors for each door they failed to force open. My strategy is to include lots of doors. Also, sometimes wandering monsters will open doors right in front of the players' noses. |
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muddy
Level 4 Theurgist
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Post by muddy on Dec 6, 2021 9:30:53 GMT -6
I've once played as I believed is RAW, that you get 1 chance to open a stuck door and that's it. The dungeon ended rather quickly...
Does it actually say you only get one chance?
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Post by hamurai on Dec 7, 2021 8:17:48 GMT -6
muddy , as I said, it's what we believed is RAW. It doesn't say you only get one chance. In fact, it says 3 characters can try at once. I dislike doors as time sinks, though. Retrying to force the same door over and over just doesn't seem like fun to me. I'd rather have the characters move on and explore somewhere else with a better chance to proceed there.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2021 17:48:30 GMT -6
While I do use stuck doors, it is not for the reason you present. I am amazed that players would not explore new sections unless they are forced to. If you crave excitement and mystery, you would always be seeking the unexplored areas and not following the same path every time. If players are bored, either the DM is boring or they are choosing to be bored. Assuming a good DM, players that are bored are IMO seeking boredom. While I agree with your point, I feel compelled (rightly or wrongly) to defend my player's instincts. From my players' perspective, they believed (somewhat mistakenly) that lower levels of the dungeon contained more wonder and mystery than the upper layers. While that is theoretically true, the upper levels of my mega-dungeon are much better thought-out and better articulated in room design than the lower levels. Of course, my dungeon should be brilliantly conceived and realized from top to bottom; unfortunately, real life and a non-infinite wellspring of creativity place constraints on my abilities as a referee. I would add that, accessing lower levels too soon, can be considered tantamount to suicide. Upper levels should have a lot of wonder and mystery. Exploring that is what prepares you to have a chance of surviving the much more deadly Lower levels. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2021 17:51:00 GMT -6
Do you allow characters to try again, or, on a failure, is the door just too darn stuck? I've been allowing retries, which prevents surprise should there be something lurking behind the door, increases chances for wandering monsters, and takes more time with successive failures. That's how I play, as per the rules...but the players still decide "door's stuck, try another one". It kind of took me by surprise. I've had players in other games try to hack open locked doors.Nothing wrong with that if they bring with them tools designed for that purpose. |
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Post by Starbeard on Dec 7, 2021 18:32:40 GMT -6
My typical method has been to allow one attempt 'for free', and after that each attempt to force open a stuck door gives a wandering monster check. Any attempt automatically alerts occupants and surprise is impossible—the occupants can still get surprise to reflect being in a ready position to hack away at whoever's fiddling with the door.
I might change this up after reading this thread. Taking 1-6 turns is a good method, so is allowing only a set number of attempts per expedition. I'm all for procedures that stand unless there's reason to disrupt them, so I'm thinking something like this:
All else being equal, the party can't be surprised opening a normal door, but the occupants can. Stuck doors are the opposite: the party can be surprised, but the occupants can't. Only one attempt per character, up to 3 can try per door. Each attempt also has a WM roll.
After that it's either an axe for 1-6 turns, or a thief may try to 'pick' it if those are in play. Dismantling the door is a WM check every round and obviously alerts everyone within earshot.
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Post by ffilz on Dec 15, 2021 16:32:50 GMT -6
Here's my door opening rules:
One character can open a door on a roll of 1-2 on 1d6. Surprise is possible.
Two characters can open a door on a roll of 1-4 on 1d6, Surprise is possible if the roll is a 1.
Three characters can open a door without a roll, surprise is impossible.
If the first try fails, surprise is impossible (the PCs may still be surprised if they have not listened at the door).
Monsters of course can still surprise PCs.
Each door opening attempt takes 1 round.
So at most it takes 2 rounds to open a door if you have at least 3 PCs willing to be on door opening, try first with 1 or 2 characters to have a chance of surprising any occupants, and then try with 3 PCs since your chance of surprise is gone.
This seemed like a good way of handling things for play by post.
One attempt per excursion per door seems like it would have lots of chance of getting stuck.
I think I even required door opening rolls on retreating back out of the dungeon trying to get out in time to let the NPC druid outside cast Neutralize Poison...
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