|
|
Post by captainjapan on Nov 3, 2021 12:55:51 GMT -6
I only have a Monster Manual left from my original set of AD&D hardbacks (you know, the big three). So, I don't have them to reference, really.
My question is simple:
What, if any, new feature was popularized by the core 3 books? Was AD&D, in any way, an innovator? Or, was it just a collection and elaboration of existing TSR material? What makes AD&D stand out, rules-wise? What endures?
|
|
|
|
Post by talysman on Nov 3, 2021 14:04:33 GMT -6
What, if any, new feature was popularized by the core 3 books? Was AD&D, in any way, an innovator? Or, was it just a collection and elaboration of existing TSR material? What makes AD&D stand out, rules-wise? What endures? Some things depend on what you count as "innovation". Any change? Any significant change? Or only significant changes that expand or add to the game, rather than restrict it? Some ideas for each category... Minor Changes + Changes AC from 9 or less to 10 or less + Removes the d6-only Hit Dice option + Attack Tables: adjust combat advancement, add "repeating 20s" + Saving Throws: category adjustments, which class saves as what + General number tweaks throughout Significant Changes That Restrict + Ability Minimums: score below 6 makes some races/classes unavailable, two scores below 6 make PC unusable + Ability Maximums for some races + Weapon Proficiencies (fighters don't have unlimited weapon knowledge) + Alignment now mandatory by default, may slow XP acquisition + Spell components, casting time + Training costs when gaining levels Significant Changes That Expand + Formal definitions for new races (gnomes, half-orcs, variant halfling/dwarf) + Clerics now cast spells at 1st level and refresh spells after one hour prayer, no book required These are not complete. Also, I used OD&D + supplements + Strategic Review's Ranger and Illusionist as a definition of "existing TSR material". I know there was probably a lot more, but didn't do a search to decide which previously-published material counts as official expansions. This is why, frex, variable hit dice aren't listed, but removal of d6-only hit dice is listed (the Greyhawk supplement adds an option, but AD&D makes the option mandatory and does not list the original method.) |
|
|
|
Post by captainjapan on Nov 3, 2021 15:30:27 GMT -6
This restriction stands out to me. If players are suddenly prohibited from playing races/ non-prestige classes because they rolled poorly, rather than leaving it to the player to choose (as in od&d), I think a profound shift has taken place.
|
|
|
|
Post by Starbeard on Nov 8, 2021 17:02:32 GMT -6
What about spell schools, were they detailed before the PHB? They aren't really immediately meaningful in first edition, but the triple whammy of casting time/segments, components, and spell school all combine to create the defining D&D magic paradigm that persists right up to today, and the schools in particular even influenced other games.
Half-orcs definitely, I'd say. That angle has endured and been blown wide open.
|
|
|
|
Post by talysman on Nov 8, 2021 19:26:04 GMT -6
This restriction stands out to me. If players are suddenly prohibited from playing races/ non-prestige classes because they rolled poorly, rather than leaving it to the player to choose (as in od&d), I think a profound shift has taken place.
Definitely what I was thinking, too, when I classified it as a restriction. In OD&D, the four main classes and four main races have no minimum scores, so abilities are essentially extra character details. You can have a dumb elf M-U if you want. When the subclasses get added, those have minimum scores, but since each subclass is still linked to one of the four main classes at this point, it feels more like bonus ability packages for the main classes if certain criteria are met. With AD&D, abilities define all the classes, so rolling ability scores becomes a necessary first step to character creation. It's no longer a matter of picking the class you want to be, but the class you are allowed to be. And in some cases, it turns out you can't be any class. What about spell schools, were they detailed before the PHB? They aren't really immediately meaningful in first edition, but the triple whammy of casting time/segments, components, and spell school all combine to create the defining D&D magic paradigm that persists right up to today, and the schools in particular even influenced other games. In one sense, schools of magic did exist prior to AD&D with the creation of the illusionist class in The Strategic Review, which helped define at least one school (illusion.) There may have been additional OD&D material about schools of magic as well, but perhaps not, since when AD&D first rolls out, there doesn't seem to be much game effect for the various schools, other than a few cases where monsters are immune to charm or illusion. Later AD&D material made the schools more functional instead of decorative, and in 2e, the schools become a way of customizing M-Us. So perhaps they should be considered an innovation of AD&D 1.5 (Unearthed Arcana) or later. |
|
|
|
Post by tkdco2 on Nov 16, 2021 1:03:45 GMT -6
IIRC, the Dragonlance Adventures 1e book had different schools for magic-users and spheres for clerics. But aside from illusionists, there were no specialist mages or specialty clerics before 2e. The schools and spheres were only for determining which ones were available to spellcasters according to their alignments.
|
|
|
|
Post by Finarvyn on Nov 16, 2021 5:10:18 GMT -6
+ Removes the d6-only Hit Dice option the Greyhawk supplement adds an option, but AD&D makes the option mandatory and does not list the original method An interesting distinction, that of offering two options versus making one mandatory. I'm uncertain as to whether that makes a difference in the two or just a streamline, as it was clear that OD&D was headed in that direction. The same could be said for the two combat systems, where Chainmail combat was offered as an option but never really used, whereas AD&D clearly gives the "alternate" one as the only one. ----------------- Your list also illustrates the biggest flaw in OD&D compared to AD&D -- OD&D was spread out among the 3 LBB, then 3 more rules supplements, plus a large number of SR and Dragon articles. AD&D took that material and reorganized it. A lot of AD&D was out there somewhere already for OD&D, if you could find it. OD&D also tended to offer options, where AD&D made demands in order to standardize play somewhat. OD&D had: ** Lots of classes -- Assassin, Bard, Cleric, Fighter, Illusionist, Magic-user, Monk, Paladin, Ranger, and Thief. (Plus a bunch of lesser known ones like Alchemist, Berserker, Healer, Idiot, Jester, Samurai, Scribe, and Witch. Probably some others I've forgotten, and a bunch of others if you look at 3rd party products like Judges Guild. I'm trying to stick to TSR creations.) ** Rules to take characters above the rulebook, with examples up to level 20-ish (or higher for the magic-user) ** Hit location tables for assigning damage to humans and other types of creatures ** Rules for land combat, air combat, sea combat, and general "domain" style play ** Rules for castle construction plus costs of specialist hirelings to have run the castle ** Rules for artifacts ** Rules for psionics Stuff like that. A person just had to know where to find it and how to use it, but most of that kind of stuff was in the rules by 1976 or so. What AD&D did best IMO was to put all of that stuff together and organize it so that it could be accessed faster and better. AD&D also had the habit of determining which of the options was sanctioned, so many of the optional classes from Dragon essentially vanished. (Well, some were rewritten later and published as variant rules in ... Dragon ... so they came back, but the original intent of AD&D seems to be to clearly define what was allowed and what was not.) Of course, that "flaw in OD&D" eventually became the same "flaw" for AD&D as creative minds made more optional material spread out over many places, which sort of led to 2E. And the cycle continues.... |
|
aramis
Level 4 Theurgist
Posts: 197 
|
Post by aramis on Nov 17, 2021 2:03:13 GMT -6
IIRC, the Dragonlance Adventures 1e book had different schools for magic-users and spheres for clerics. But aside from illusionists, there were no specialist mages or specialty clerics before 2e. The schools and spheres were only for determining which ones were available to spellcasters according to their alignments. IIRC, They are in one of the hardcover late 1E splats. TOme of Magic or Unearthed Arcana. DLA's schools make use of tracking the moons to determine which schools are advantaged/disadvantaged. |
|
