Best simulacrum for running at the FLGS?

[Deleted]

I've recently discovered that after a 20 year or so hiatus of my hometown having a hobby shop, one has opened back up under my nose recently, and in addition to running big-name games like D&D and CoC, there's also been a successful DCC campaign ran there a few times by one of my distant cousins and former classmates. 

So, that's really cool, because it means people are playing old school in my hometown, and I can get involved. I'd also like to eventually run a similar game of my own locally, and I'm wondering which of the current crop of old-school adjacent titles are considered marketable, because the owner wants people to host products he can actually sell units of, like Magic or D&D, which makes a lot of good business sense but limits me somewhat. 

I was thinking about OSE, but then again, it's very similar to D&D tonally and I've been told there's some issues with stocking that in the United States. Maybe Hyperborea or Worlds Without Number? Those have some big, glossy hard cover books that look good on shelves. They're also both "close enough" to the types of games I'd prefer running. Hyperborea in particular is different enough from D&D and DCC genre-wise to maybe attract some attention. What do you guys think?

[Finarvyn]

It's a great question, and one that I ponder a lot. I think in part it comes down to which products the store is willing to sell. I'd love to run OD&D but the store can't stock and sell it, so I think it's a bad choice of games to run. The two most common ones that I can think of would probably be Castles & Crusades and DCC RPG. Both have a wide variety of products, from rulebooks to modules to alternate setting stuff. Lots of variety of materials which could be sold by the store, lots of materials for me to choose from as a DM. Both are highly "old school" in presentation.

[Deleted]

Sept 26, 2021 17:47:47 GMT -6 Finarvyn said:

It's a great question, and one that I ponder a lot. I think in part it comes down to which products the store is willing to sell. I'd love to run OD&D but the store can't stock and sell it, so I think it's a bad choice of games to run. The two most common ones that I can think of would probably be Castles & Crusades and DCC RPG. Both have a wide variety of products, from rulebooks to modules to alternate setting stuff. Lots of variety of materials which could be sold by the store, lots of materials for me to choose from as a DM. Both are highly "old school" in presentation.

I have a bit of a fondness/soft spot for C&C, but I run into a whole "over-saturation of standard fantasy" thing. The store has like three ongoing 5e D&D campaigns and a DCC one going on already. C&C would fall under the same brand of fantasy, although less heroic than 5e and less weird than DCC. I feel something like Hyperborea would differentiate itself with its more Conan-esque setting. 

However, the point about the many printed setting books and adventures works better in C&C's favor, doesn't it? That game's been in print since the early 2000's. There's a huge library of books that could be potentially stocked. However, it's not exactly considered a new or sexy thing any more. So, I'm conflicted. 

[jeffb]

For Running?

Swords & Wizardry White Box, or Complete.... no question.


For Selling.... that is an entirely different subject. I don't think there is a clear winner in OSR-dom- none of them are big sellers in the grand scheme of things outside Kickstarter. And some might shoot themselves in the foot based on cost of entry.

[Starbeard]

Did we talk about this in somewhere else? I'm having deja vu. I could also just be lacking sleep.

It's a tough call, really. I see what you mean about C&C fitting into a middling "same but less" category of what's already offered.

If that's an issue with C&C, then it will probably be an issue with any TSR clone you pick. However, that might—might—not actually be a bad thing. A few years ago I started a B/X open table at my university game club, where they already had 4-8 Fifth Edition tables going on any given night. My table still consistently had one of highest turnouts, and multiple players said that it was because, "In this game we actually do stuff." For example, within the same amount of time that one table was still in the first half of Curse of Strahd, we had done B1, B2, X1, some of B10, multiple hexcrawls, two levels of megadungeon, gone to outer space, faced off a god twice, etc., all seemlessly in a sandbox game where they decided what to do each session.

So you still might fill a distinctive niche, especially if some of the 5e games are closed campaigns of friends who aren't really accepting new players. The DCC game draws the quirky and edgy crowd, the Fifth Edition games draw the Lingua Franca crowd, and C&C (or OSE, LL, S&W, ASSH) would draw the "Let's just play, what are we fighting and what do I roll?" crowd.

To be fair, I think I had help. The players who kept coming back to my game were mostly the ones who didn't really care about the rules or even learning the rules, they just wanted to imagine a neat character, make decisions and roll dice. Your crowd might not draw as many of those types. Also, Stranger Things was brand new at the time and I'm certain the nostalgia-cred brought in some players who wouldn't have been interested before or after that craze.

[jeffb]

Sept 27, 2021 11:21:28 GMT -6 Starbeard said:

My table still consistently had one of highest turnouts, and multiple players said that it was because, "In this game we actually do stuff." For example, within the same amount of time that one table was still in the first half of Curse of Strahd, we had done B1, B2, X1, some of B10, multiple hexcrawls, two levels of megadungeon, gone to outer space, faced off a god twice, etc., all seemlessly in a sandbox game where they decided what to do each session.

.

This is a key observation, and a great point.

C&C (and other lean games like S&W) may be the better fit here than something like ASSH which looks amazing and has a great setting but is definitely more crunchy.

[Deleted]

Sept 27, 2021 10:58:03 GMT -6 jeffb said:

For Running?

Swords & Wizardry White Box, or Complete.... no question.


For Selling.... that is an entirely different subject. I don't think there is a clear winner in OSR-dom- none of them are big sellers in the grand scheme of things outside Kickstarter. And some might shoot themselves in the foot based on cost of entry.

It has to satisfy both criteria in this situation. Ideally it would be something I wanna run with no other considerations, but I feel like I can still do that to a slightly lesser degree while satisfying the "marketable" criteria, too. 

The shop is already keeping DCC stocked and has been for a while, apparently, so we know that one is good enough. But someone has that covered already, obviously. 

[Deleted]

Sept 27, 2021 11:21:28 GMT -6 Starbeard said:

Did we talk about this in somewhere else? I'm having deja vu. I could also just be lacking sleep.

It's a tough call, really. I see what you mean about C&C fitting into a middling "same but less" category of what's already offered.

If that's an issue with C&C, then it will probably be an issue with any TSR clone you pick. However, that might—might—not actually be a bad thing. A few years ago I started a B/X open table at my university game club, where they already had 4-8 Fifth Edition tables going on any given night. My table still consistently had one of highest turnouts, and multiple players said that it was because, "In this game we actually do stuff." For example, within the same amount of time that one table was still in the first half of Curse of Strahd, we had done B1, B2, X1, some of B10, multiple hexcrawls, two levels of megadungeon, gone to outer space, faced off a god twice, etc., all seemlessly in a sandbox game where they decided what to do each session.

So you still might fill a distinctive niche, especially if some of the 5e games are closed campaigns of friends who aren't really accepting new players. The DCC game draws the quirky and edgy crowd, the Fifth Edition games draw the Lingua Franca crowd, and C&C (or OSE, LL, S&W, ASSH) would draw the "Let's just play, what are we fighting and what do I roll?" crowd.

To be fair, I think I had help. The players who kept coming back to my game were mostly the ones who didn't really care about the rules or even learning the rules, they just wanted to imagine a neat character, make decisions and roll dice. Your crowd might not draw as many of those types. Also, Stranger Things was brand new at the time and I'm certain the nostalgia-cred brought in some players who wouldn't have been interested before or after that craze.

There's a lot to be said for this argument, and for C&C in general. Its relative "sameness" could also work to its advantage. It could be "that other D&D-like game where you never know what's going to happen." I would definitely be running it that way. 

edit: And there's a good chance you and I have had this very discussion already, yes, a few months back - although at the time it would have been "hypothetically, if a game store opened up nearby" which has now become a reality. 

[jeffb]

Sept 27, 2021 17:01:47 GMT -6 @ampleframework said:

Sept 27, 2021 10:58:03 GMT -6 jeffb said:

For Running?

Swords & Wizardry White Box, or Complete.... no question.


For Selling.... that is an entirely different subject. I don't think there is a clear winner in OSR-dom- none of them are big sellers in the grand scheme of things outside Kickstarter. And some might shoot themselves in the foot based on cost of entry.

It has to satisfy both criteria in this situation. Ideally it would be something I wanna run with no other considerations, but I feel like I can still do that to a slightly lesser degree while satisfying the "marketable" criteria, too. 

The shop is already keeping DCC stocked and has been for a while, apparently, so we know that one is good enough. But someone has that covered already, obviously. 

Yeah. Tough having to cover both ends of that spectrum.

I know from personal experience the point Starbeard was making can be huge. I remember when I started running regular games for the Kids, and we played the PF Beginner Box and the introductory adventure, Crypt of the Everflame. It took us about 2.5-3 months to get through it. A simple 2 level Dungeon, playing once a week for around 3-4 hours.

When I switched over to S&W after that- in that same timeframe of 3 months we had gone through a few small-ish adventures of my own creation as well as U1, and were getting into The Haunted Halls of Eveningstar.

I like that kind of fast pacing, and boy so did those Kids. It tripled their interest from before. As a player, taking forever to complete adventures, especially at store game with limited time and plenty of distraction, I'd probably bow out if we were taking a couple sessions for a big combat or something with a crunchier system.

[Deleted]

Sept 27, 2021 17:30:30 GMT -6 jeffb said:

Sept 27, 2021 17:01:47 GMT -6 @ampleframework said:

It has to satisfy both criteria in this situation. Ideally it would be something I wanna run with no other considerations, but I feel like I can still do that to a slightly lesser degree while satisfying the "marketable" criteria, too. 

The shop is already keeping DCC stocked and has been for a while, apparently, so we know that one is good enough. But someone has that covered already, obviously. 

Yeah. Tough having to cover both ends of that spectrum.

I know from personal experience the point Starbeard was making can be huge. I remember when I started running regular games for the Kids, and we played the PF Beginner Box and the introductory adventure, Crypt of the Everflame. It took us about 2.5-3 months to get through it. A simple 2 level Dungeon, playing once a week for around 3-4 hours.

When I switched over to S&W after that- in that same timeframe of 3 months we had gone through a few small-ish adventures of my own creation as well as U1, and were getting into The Haunted Halls of Eveningstar.

I like that kind of fast pacing, and boy so did those Kids. It tripled their interest from before. As a player, taking forever to complete adventures, especially at store game with limited time and plenty of distraction, I'd probably bow out if we were taking a couple sessions for a big combat or something with a crunchier system.

You know, I'd really enjoy running S&W the most, but I'm not 100% sure how it's being marketed these days. I know they did the KS for the box set a while back. I dunno if they're still offering the hard covers. FGG has a bunch of printed adventure modules and supplement books. It's one of the better-developed third party RPG companies that focuses on "first edition feel". I'd definitely consider this closer to 0e and more in my wheelhouse than even C&C. I'm just not sure about how the actual print system is working right now when it comes to being stocked. 

[Starbeard]

You might hop onto the Frog God Discord server and ask about that, actually. Wouldn't hurt.

It's not a huge loss if you "have" to go OSE or C&C instead of S&W, the owner could still stock S&W modules alongside whatever system you end up running. I've run several S&W modules for B/X and never had to lift a pencil.

[hamurai]

Well, if you'd like the store to get some sales and at the same time use a rules-light game system with an old-school feel, try running DCC modules with OSE or S&W. I've ran one-shots with Swords & Wizardry Continual Light at the German Free RPG Day simply because the digital rules are free (I believe the English rules come at a low price?) and quick and easy to learn. DCC modules are easy to convert on-the-fly and there are lots of good ones around, plus they're not the standard fantasy you get in most other games.

I've run Sailors on the Starless Sea, Portal under the Stars, The Old God's Return, The Croaking Fane and others (I forget the names) with S&WCL without feeling the need to pre-convert anything. That's probably just as easy to do for most other OSR titles which are close to D&D, so OSE for example will work just fine.

I guess in the end it comes down to your players - do they want some more crunch in the rules?

Edit: Fixed typo.