13th Age for free on Friday the 13th

[jeffb]

MODS- I'm unsure where to put this- essentially it's a "new Edition" of D&D and not a Simulacrum. Please move if/as necessary

So I missed this on Friday. They FINALLY (after 8+ years) have a quick start for 13th Age (they have done the FREE RPG Day items though for years).

13th Age QS page


I'm guessing the majority of the crowd here will not be interested, but for those who are curious- have at it. It does not include an adventure , but luckily you have me around

In particular for us old fogies, I'd recommend this "sandbox"/adventure area The Knee Deep (this is good for any game, actually)


LMK if you have any questions. I'm fairly well versed in the products and I've run it quite a bit.

[tkdco2]

thanks for sharing. I'll take a look and see how the system works. If nothing else, I can mine ideas for my games.

[jeffb]

Aug 15, 2021 16:01:52 GMT -6 tkdco2 said:

thanks for sharing. I'll take a look and see how the system works. If nothing else, I can mine ideas for my games.

I've stolen several things for my "OD&D" and C&C games.

The "Knee Deep" Adventure is definitely worth a look too. This swamp in the Dragon Empire was given it's name by Giant's who dwell in the region- it's a minor inconvenience for them as they travel from the northern areas to the southern areas.

Here is a freebie map of the setting

The Empire

[Deleted]

I may roll up a character in this sometime soon just to check it out.

[jeffb]

Aug 16, 2021 10:47:51 GMT -6 @ampleframework said:

I may roll up a character in this sometime soon just to check it out.

As an FYI- 13th Age is really light on the DM side of things- combat rules, monsters, etc. The most complex or crunchy part of the game are the character classes- it was designed that way- The DMs life is easy, and Players who want/enjoy some crunch at each level have it. In general, you choose generally what kind of X you will be at the onset and as you level, you improve upon those initial choices and add some side things. It's not like Pathfinder or whatever where you are thinking I want to be X, and I have to make these choices at this level, this level, and that level in order to get me there. Not those kinds of builds.

If you are going to use the core game rules- I'd recommend a Barbarian to start. It's about the complexity level of a 5E Champion Fighter, but doesn't really get more complicated over time.

HOWEVER

If you are looking for a simpler set of classes that are just as robust in play and allow everyone to have some fun with improv with their spells, attacks, and such I HIGHLY recommend the 13th Age Companion Classes. It is more straightforward and you can fit your character on an index card. I ran my Teens games  mostly with these rules for characters, and we actually had more fun working together to figure out spells, crazy stunts and such on the fly

LINK FIXED- 13th Age Companions/Simple characters

[Deleted]

Not really looking to adopt a new system on the DM side of things, mind you, but I might be willing to mess around as a player. I hear good things.

[tdenmark]

Can any 13th Age fans summarize good mechanics to borrow?

[tedopon]

I ran 13th Age for a couple years. It's my favorite of the D&Ds that came after 2nd edition that aren't DCC.

One Unique Thing is a fun thing to add to characters that doesn't generally have any in game effects.

The ranges for distance effects for everything in the system I use no matter what system I run. They're basically Touch, Near and Far...you don't worry about distance more than that level of granularity.

I also like the skill system, which I use when I run OD&D. You basically just have three keywords written on your sheet. In 13th Age they go by skill modifier, but in OD&D I just say if you can reason that your keyword may help you I don't require a roll, you just do whatever the task is or if I require a roll you get some bonus (most rolls I just have a person roll a d6 and I will give them a +1 for having "training," 4+ is a success in most cases. The keywords can be as broad or as specific as you want them, and I encourage the players to make them broad, like "pirate" or "farmer" etc.

The way you design adventures in 13th Age is how I usually run D&D. It's episodic and the players generate most of whatever will happen in the scenario at the table talking at the start of the session. In OD&D we generally will get several sessions of play out of ten minutes of talking at the beginning of a session, so it makes prep super easy.

I quit playing it for two reasons. First off, no matter what D&D I want to run, everyone else would rather play 5e...so I would rather run OD&D since it's my favorite...I'd happily run DCC or 13th Age, but they're going to pregnant dog and moan so it may as well be my favorite we're playing. Secondly, dice inflation gets out of control from about level 5 or 6 onwards. All monsters have hundreds of hit points, all attacks do dozens of hit points. The system is based on 4e, so it makes sense that the numbers would scale like crazy, but it gets tedious to track things for both GM and players after the mid levels.
All the main system sourcebooks were great, especially the monster books which I honestly would recommend a fan of any D&D check out just for fun reading. The Glorantha one was awesome as well. Most of the other stuff they made for it was 3rd party stuff that converted PF or 4e stuff and it was all basically trash.

[jeffb]

Grab a coffee........This is a subject near and dear to my heart.

The game's designers straight up on the first page talk about how they absolutely love to see people are swiping stuff for their own games and have some recommendations if people don't want to play their game as written.


Backgrounds - As tedopon mentioned it's basically a few keywords that works as your skill system. IN 13th Age, you distribute a few points to each, and they can be added as a bonus to a roll if they are relevant to whatever you are attempting. They can be mundane , like Town Guard or Blacksmith, but I encourage people to use them as a sort of "Prestige Class". E.g. In Greyhawk we have had backgrounds like "Ranger of the Gnarley Forest" or "Former Palace Guard for Belvor the IV". In my own settings, things like "Reaver of the Black Coast". In play, you might have a PC who has been bound- The player might say, "I'm a Former Reaver....I'm a wiz with knots, I should be able to get this undone", and I would say, OK, make a DEX Check, and you can add your Reaver points to the roll. The next day, you might be lost at sea, and the player could bring up this background again in order to navigate more effectively- OK, make a WIS check (or INT, or whatever the DM decides) and add your Reaver points. Backgrounds are not tied to an ability score- so they can be used for anything.


Many people borrow the "escalation die". It's mostly a tool to speed up combat, and generally only the PCs have the benefit, however some powerful monsters do too. Essentially the DM has a BIG D6 where everyone can see it- On the second round of combat, the escalation die is set to "1"- All Players get to add +1 to their attack rolls. Each round after, the die goes up by one, and bonus does too. It's pretty fricking scary when you are up against a dragon, demon or such, and they are getting that escalation die too as the combat moves round to round. Some PC and monster powers trigger off the escalation die at a certsain numberr as things get more desparate. For example- A Demon may make an extremely brutal special attack when the Escalation die reaches "3" (round 4). I think for OD&D a D3 or D4 would be more suitable. I have a giant set of foam D6's in multiple colors, I set it up on a large candlestick on the table next to me.

One of my favorites is Monster "Specials". They are optional "special attacks" that trigger off the monster's (natural) attack roll-usually a natural 16+ or sometimes an natural even or odd roll For example- Here is a VROCK's attacks, including it's specials and optional "nastier specials".

Filth-covered claws +11 vs. AC (2 attacks)—7 damage, and 5 ongoing poison damage

Natural even hit: The vrock can make a demonic screech attack as a free action.

[Special trigger] C: Demonic screech +11 vs. MD (1d3 nearby enemies), 5 psychic damage, and the target is vulnerable (attacks vs. it have crit range expanded by 2) until the end of the battle

Nastier Specials

Predation: Creatures hit by the vrock’s demonic screech attack that are already vulnerable are also hampered (save ends) ("Hampered" is a special condition that incurs penalties- JB)

ONe of my faves is the ETTIN-

Initiative: +9
First big swing +10 vs. AC—25 damage, and the target pops free (Essentially is knocked back 10-20 feet- JB) from the ettin; then as a free action, the ettin can move (or choose not to move) and make a second swing attack.

[Special trigger] Second swing +10 vs. AC (different target from first big swing)—15 damage

Two-headed save: If an ettin’s first save against an effect fails, it can roll a second save.

Nastier Specials

Big bully: The ettin deals double damage with its attacks against staggered enemies (Staggered is the same condition as Bloodied in 4e- i.e. at half hit points or less)

Escalating agreement: If the escalation die is 3+, the ettin can target two engaged enemies with its first big swing attack.

So as you can see, monsters can be especially brutal in 13th Age, and despite the large #s of HP and damage thrown about (which can be crazy at times), the combats move very fast. In OD&D-ish games, I just usually have a special trigger off a natural attack roll of 16+ or save them for critical hits- Natural 20s (I also give players "specials" for crits). I've tried both, I prefer to drop "normal" crits and incorporate specials.

ICONS- I would recommend checking out the quick start rules for the overview- At first, I kind of ignored this whole bit, but over time I realized it is a simple and amazing tool that generates adventure elements for your players, and ideas for you as the DM. ICONS are the movers and shakers of the world. Your PC may positive/negative/conflicted relationships with with one or more ICONS (indirectly). For example- You may have a positive relationship with the Emperor- maybe you were a Imperial Soldier who retired in good standing. Maybe your Mage as a conflicted relationship with The Archmage (was a highly praised student at the Academy, but did something bad...?) or maybe your Cleric is infamous among the minions of The Lich King for blessing that old tomb you delved, and you are now hunted (Negative relationship). There are many optional ways to use them- but essentially dice are rolled at beginning or end of a session- and the results can be varied- Maybe the Cleric was in the City helping the local temple with initiation rites for the new clerics, and now your poor roll on your ICON dice means that you were spotted by someone associated with The Lich King- the DM may throw a wrench into the adventure using this. Or maybe you roll well, and you get some kind of boon- Yeah, you ex soldier was drunk, beat up the town guards and now is in jail for 2 weeks, but an old friend of yours from your time in the service is the local constable, and cuts you slack if you do him a favor. While in a Lost City, your Mage's conflicted relationship could be both a boon and bane-you luck upon a set of magic writings that will greatly help you in the coming conflict, but you will require some sort of magical sacrifice (maybe a minor curse which will lead to another adventure in order to remove it).

Now- you can use whomever you want for ICONS. In the 13th Age Dragon Empire, they are all typical high level NPCs from any number of D&D settings. But few of them are "Black and white"- Many are shades of "grey", even the Demonic Queen known as The Diabolist. The Archmage. The Emperor. The Dwarf King. The Orc Lord. A Lich King (vecna). The Three (Headed dragon- ala Tiamat). The Priestess (Conduit to the Gods of Light), etc.

You can easily substitute your own- for example in GH, I made The Circle of Eight an Icon. The Scarlet Brotherhood an Icon. Iuz the Evil an Icon, etc. In The Wilderlands , Icons could be The Invincible Overlord, The World Emperor, The Black Lotus, The Rump Family, etc. In 13th Age in Glorantha, the RUNES have become the ICONs.

The "official setting" is full of awesome bits to steal for any game. It is essentially Arduin meets Glorantha, both are the favorite settings of the designers The Empire is a mix of:

The Mythical -underworlds, living dungeons, a dragon lord -bahamut- whose body seals off a crack in the mortal world and in doing so keeps the hordes of the abyss at bay-but how long can he last?\ The World is flat.

And the Gonzo- an overworld among clouds (Archmage's Tower reaches into the Overworld) , Tarrasque like beasts who migrate around the continent in certain years causing all kinds of havoc, The Lich King sits on his throne in a Necropolis located at the center of the world, A city ruled by The Three, Is Starport an actual spaceport? or a way to reach The Gods?).

There are no traditional religions or alignments in The Dragon Empire. Those Clerics of "good faith" would align with one of the good ICONs (likely The Priestess), Those of Evil intent might align with The Diabolist, the Three, The Lich King, or maybe The Crusader who in every waking moment fights against the evil demons and devils, yet is willing to destroy and has destroyed anything good that gets in his way of completing his mission.

It's a crazy mixed up sandbox of a campaign setting and was designed for every single DM to modify to their whims. Most anything has 3,4,5 possible explanations of what it is/how it came to be/what to do with it. In fact the setting will probably be completely different in every campaign you set in it.

[tedopon]

Yeah, I use the escalation die as well, don't know why I forgot to mention it. I have a giant white and blue one that looks like blueberry ice cream and weighs like a pound. I also use the Chaos escalation mechanic from Glorantha, and in certain situations I will even just randomly give only the bad guys escalation to ratchet tension.

Also, I usually will give most adversaries some form of oddball extra power like they do with monsters...usually nothing too powerful, but it makes things a lot more interesting.

I actually spun the Icon idea into something different that works more like Gloranthan runes, but they're stuff we made up for our own campaign world. We only have two deities and another thing called Void, but there are representations of all three that are named Aspects that function kind of like Icons. That spinoff that originally developed out of Runequest and 13th Age ended up being the basis of how we do everything in the shared world we run all D&D games in.

[Finarvyn]

I played in a number of games of 13th Age, roughly at the same time as D&D Next was being playtested. It's a great system. I had most of the books at one point but trimmed out my collection to only the core rulebook because I was running out of space, but I really enjoyed the rules and have been trying to convince my son to give it a go sometime.

The background process is one I like better than most game; you write down descriptors instead of being tied to numbers. The "one unique thing" helps set characters apart from one another and makes them more individual. This stuff can come into play a lot or a little, depending on how the GM wants to run it.

The escalation die is simple but wicked.

I like some of the quirky stuff, such as "if you hit and the die roll is an odd number something cool happens." (That "something cool" is mapped out in the rules. I was giving an example.)

I eventually had to pick between 5E and 13th Age, as both were being run at the local game store in the same slot. I picked 5E but I think I might have been just as happy if I had picked 13th Age instead.

EDIT: There should probably be a section here for 13th Age. Maybe in "other editions"? Not sure where it would go jeffb ?

[jeffb]

Aug 17, 2021 8:24:12 GMT -6 Finarvyn said:

: There should probably be a section here for 13th Age. Maybe in "other editions"? Not sure where it would go jeffb ?

Finarvyn - You are the Boss, Sir! but I reckon I would put it in the "Other" section?

It is technically not a Dungeons & Dragons game- however it is designed by the Lead Designer of 3rd edition and the lead designer of 4th Edition as their "love letter" to D&D (as they described it)- the game they play themselves and would have designed if they didn't have to answer to anyone at WOTC. A "what if" 5th edition with the serial numbers filed off.

I would say it occupies the same design space as Castles & Crusades, or DCC RPG.

[phantomtim]

Aug 17, 2021 19:12:04 GMT -6 jeffb said:

it is designed by the Lead Designer of 3rd edition and the lead designer of 4th Edition as their "love letter" to D&D (as they described it)- the game they play themselves and would have designed if they didn't have to answer to anyone at WOTC. A "what if" 5th edition with the serial numbers filed off.

I would say it occupies the same design space as Castles & Crusades, or DCC RPG.

I agree. While I think of it as "my favorite edition of D&D," it's not a retroclone. It borrows heavily from D&D's DNA, but is a unique game.

[phantomtim]

Aug 16, 2021 15:40:44 GMT -6 tdenmark said:

Can any 13th Age fans summarize good mechanics to borrow?

Here's a list off the top of my head. I'm happy to elaborate on them further.

• Icons – By defining the most influential "movers and shakers" in your setting and tying the PCs to them during character creation, you get a couple powerful benefits. First, the PCs are already invested in the setting. You can bypass the "you meet in a tavern" scene, because the PCs are already influenced by the machinations of the icons (or at least their organizations). Second, the icon advantage mechanics grant the players agency to alter details in scenes to their benefit. This is similar to Fate points or Savage Worlds bennies, except the player needs to tie the advantage to the pertinent icon.
  
• Escalation die – Take the biggest d6 you can find and on the second round of combat, place it on the table showing the number 1. This is the PCs' bonus to attacks (and spells count as attacks, rather than rolling defensive saves in 13th Age). It reflects the heroes' adaptation to combat, increasing adrenaline, and their experience working together as an effective team. On the third round of combat, the die escalates to 2, and so on. If the PCs turtle up and don't move the action forward, the escalation die can stall or even decrement. Only the most powerful monsters, such as dragons, take advantage of the escalation die.
  
• Magic weapon quirks – Rather than just granting mechanical benefits, magic items have quirks that their wielders feel. These are typically just little opportunities to roleplay. But if a PC has too many magic items, the quirks take over their personality.
  
• Failing forward – Rather than allow a failed skill check to stall the story, a failure might allow the PC to do what they'd attempted, moving the story forward, but something unexpected and unwanted happens.
  
• Meaningful deaths – You don't die at the hands of a goblin who makes a lucky crit. You're unconscious and likely going to be dragged to the boss goblin. And the boss goblin was given a name by the GM, so you'll be in real trouble then. Death is still an option, but it can only occur at the hands of a named NPC. This rule gives the PCs a chance to rescue a fallen comrade or for that hero to escape. It's very cinematic.
  
• You can always retreat...for a price – As long as at least one of the PCs is still alive, they can call for a retreat. The players then narrate how they got out of the situation. The retreat is a success, automatically. But it comes at a cost, which the rules call a campaign loss. The enemies were able to get that much closer to their goal. They took something the PCs care about. The world is that much closer to coming to an end. Something like that. It's dire, but it sure beats a TPK.
  
• A full heal-up occurs after four normal-difficulty encounters – Rather than healing up and getting your spells back when you go to sleep, this only happens after four encounters. If you go to sleep after just two, then the table works together to describe why their sleep was interrupted or they couldn't get a full rest. They merely got the benefits of a short rest. It turns things around, so the narrative follows the mechanics, rather than the other way around. If the characters really need that full heal-up, they can insist on getting one, but it costs them a campaign loss (see retreat rules above).
  
• Monsters do interesting things based on the natural die roll – Rather than roll separate recharge dice for special attacks or have the GM try to think tactically for the whole group of monsters on every round, let the d20 "decide" for you. If you roll low, it's a normal melee or ranged attack. If you roll 16+ on the natural d20 roll, the monster does that cool thing. Ignore "recharge on 1 in 6" type mechanics, and make it a breath weapon attack on a 14+.
  
• Monsters do interesting things when they reach half their hit points – Use the monster's hit points as a trigger to do cool things. They get a free breath weapon attack or they get a new attack available to them using their quick action, for example.
  
• Use backgrounds instead of discrete sets of skills – Pick two or three important background elements for your PC. When a background would apply to a skill check, give them a bonus. The "former thieves guild master of the town of Phandelver" might give bonuses to thievery and acrobatics, but it also provides benefits when the group needs to do something that requires someone who's streetwise in Phandelver or who can intimidate other thieves or knows how a guild operates.
  
• One Unique Thing – Each PC has a sentence or two describing their One Unique Thing. What makes their story worth telling, even if they weren't part of this group? I think of it as the one-liner for any of the Avengers that warrants their own standalone movies. They're awesome as a team, but there are equally interesting stories to be told, even if they were alone. This has no mechanical benefit, but aids in shared worldbuilding and often motivates the PCs.
  
• Montage – Rather than play out long journeys or merely skip to the end of the trip, run a montage. One player introduces a challenge that occurred during the journey. The player to their left describes how their character shined in solving that problem. Then they describe a new challenge. The player to their left explains how their PC solved that problem, and so on, until everyone has introduced an issue and solved one. This can optionally include a skill check to see if the PCs lose resources (such as hit points) during the montage.
  
• Abstract ranges – Rather than rely on counting squares or measuring distances between combatants, targets are engaged (in melee range), nearby (can be reached with one move action), or far away (requires two move actions). Rather than spend time picking the perfect spot to target with your area-effect spell, state that it hits 1d3+2 targets and move forward.
  
• Mooks – Allow inconsequential enemies to share a hit point pool. Give them low hit points per individual. Whenever the pool takes damage equal to one monster, a mook dies. If an attack does enough damage to kill two or three mooks, the player describes how their incredible show of prowess was able to defeat several monsters at once.
  
• Dicey moves/stunts – Ever have the player who wants to do something cool and cinematic, but there's no rule for that? Have them make a skill check for a dicey move/stunt. Let them know what's at risk: maybe they hurt themselves or they suffer a condition for a turn if they fail. If they succeed, they pull off the awesome thing they described.
  
• Fight in spirit – If a character isn't present for a fight, the player can still fight in spirit. They describe how one of the PCs is inspired by something the missing character would have done, or what they're reminded of. And then that PC gets a bonus. It's a bit like the Help action in D&D, but you get the benefit when the other character is missing.
  
• Setting skill difficulty class – Rather than messing with fiddly skill target DCs, set the DC based on two things. First, what environment are you in? Are the PCs operating at the local scale, the regional scale, or the worldwide/cosmic scale? Then determine if the thing they're attempting is medium, hard, or extremely hard difficulty. With those two factors, you set the DC.

My list suffers from stream-of-consciousness, but I hope it offers some insight into the elements that I enjoy about 13th Age that can be ported to other games with little effort. Several of these are little more than explicit GM advice, and take no change, other than thinking about the way you run the game differently. Others would take some tweaks or rules substitutions. Of these, some can be turned "on and off" based on your needs. You could switch to dicey moves and abstract ranges for a fast-moving, theater of the mind scene, then switch to rules around difficult terrain and measuring distances in feet for a set-piece encounter.

I'm always happy to answer questions that come up.

[phantomtim]

Aug 16, 2021 16:07:27 GMT -6 tedopon said:

I ran 13th Age for a couple years. It's my favorite of the D&Ds that came after 2nd edition that aren't DCC.
I quit playing it for two reasons. First off, no matter what D&D I want to run, everyone else would rather play 5e...so I would rather run OD&D since it's my favorite...I'd happily run DCC or 13th Age, but they're going to pregnant dog and moan so it may as well be my favorite we're playing. Secondly, dice inflation gets out of control from about level 5 or 6 onwards. All monsters have hundreds of hit points, all attacks do dozens of hit points. The system is based on 4e, so it makes sense that the numbers would scale like crazy, but it gets tedious to track things for both GM and players after the mid levels.

On p. 160 of the core rules, the designers suggest that as you go up in level, you use one of the following three approaches:

• No roll, just average them all: Some of our players don’t want to roll damage dice at high levels. They’re happier just taking average damage and hoping for crits to give them a boost.
  
• Average most dice, roll two or three of them: Rolling two or three dice for varied results preserves the experience of rolling damage. Roll between two and four dice, average the rest.
  
• Average the normal stuff, roll the specials: Players with characters who have power attacks and sneak attacks frequently opt to average their normal damage rolls and roll the cool bonus damage that isn’t always applicable.
  

If you're using a VTT, you can stick with rolling all the dice, since the software is doing the work for you. When I play in person, I like to use the 2nd approach, averaging most of the dice, then rolling 2–3 for a bit of variability. I've observed that GMs typically leave this up to the player. Some of my fellow players prefer the 1st approach.

There's actually another variant that co-designer Jonathan Tweet has used, where he notes the high and low range for the roll, then flips a coin. Heads, he does max damage. Tails, he does minimum damage. He likes it for particularly chaotic PCs, such as the chaos mage.

[tedopon]

Aug 22, 2021 2:12:26 GMT -6 phantomtim said:

Aug 16, 2021 16:07:27 GMT -6 tedopon said:

On p. 160 of the core rules, the designers suggest that as you go up in level, you use one of the following three approaches:

We did a lot of shortcuts for dice rolling, some of which aren't even suggestions in the book, but still found it to be cumbersome once the numbers scale really high.

[tombowings]

From what I understand, 13th age is meant to be "cinematic."

I'm not entirely sure what that word means. I understand it has something to do with film, but films cover a wide range of moods and genres. Alien, Cabin the Woods and Star Wars Episode VI are both films in the speculative fiction genre, but don't seem to follow the same ruleset.

If possible, could someone please define what "cinematic" means?

[jeffb]

Ken St. Andre had the easiest fix I think for rolling lots of dice, but it can be really swingy. Roll one die, multiply it by the level" of the monster.

So a a really powerful troll might be one that rolls 12 dice and has 65 "adds". Instead of rolling 12 dice, roll one die, and multiply by 12. It probably isn't much different than using "average", but it does satisfy the need to roll dice for some.

This is pretty much how I ran high level 13th Age- A fighter rolls D10s for a greatsword. A 8th level fighter would roll 8xD10 normally. Instead, roll one D10 and multiply by 8 and add normal bonus. Again it can be swingy, but for someone who prefers more grit/old school play, there you have it.

[jeffb]

Aug 22, 2021 8:21:20 GMT -6 tombowings said:

From what I understand, 13th age is meant to be "cinematic."

I'm not entirely sure what that word means. I understand it has something to do with film, but films cover a wide range of moods and genres. Alien, Cabin the Woods and Star Wars Episode VI are both films in the speculative fiction genre, but don't seem to follow the same ruleset.

If possible, could someone please define what "cinematic" means?

This is a ramble, and many not even answer your question- Trying to define "cinematic play" is like trying to define "what is old school?" or "what is the OSR?" Ask 10 people and you will get 12 answers.

My 2 clacks

It generally refers to a game that emulates movie action, rather than more realistic action or "simulation" of the (our) real world.

I would place something like Runequest on the side of "anti-cinematic". The rules emulate Steve's desire for gritty combat based on the simulated reality in the SCA. It is calculated, deadly, and one lucky roll by an enemy, or unlucky roll by our PC can end up getting the character killed- no matter how experienced they are or how inexperienced the antagonist is. Now, Runequest has many other elements that can help counter this grittiness- healing Magics, Divine Aid, Mythological Gonzo, etc- But the Action is "grounded".

Cinematic games, like Dungeon World, 13th Age, 4E, Fantasy Age, etc assume PCs are above average (even WAY above average in games like Exalted, or Exemplars & Eidolons) and more competent than the majority of normals in the world. They are not "zeroes to heroes". Game mechanics like minions, fray dice, stunts, luck points, etc. encourage a different sort of action/ play. Some might say more Heroic or even "Superheroic". I'm not sure I agree, it has nothing to do with heroics, you can run a cinematic campaign of cuthroat pirates and thieves, or assassins or whatever. I would say that the action is less grounded and more over the top.

Think action based on Star Wars, A Fistful of Dollars (and a slew of other Clint Eastwood Westerns) Chanbara films (sp), The Mummy, The Lord of the Rings movies (as opposed to the books), Pirates of the Caribbean, even the Demi-Gods of Greek (and other) mythology. These protagonists are all well above average- even those just starting out, like Luke Skywalker in 77's Star Wars. He's the best bush pilot in the Outer Rim territories. He can bullseye womp rats without batting an eyelash, and of course he's quick to put his latent force abilities to use once discovered. He's destined for bigger and better things. UNLIKE Movies and books though, Cinematic Games are still games. So do stupid stuff, die a stupid death.

IMO, cinematic games even do a better job with the protagonists of Appendix N we all know and love-Conan, Solomon Kane, Fafhrd & the Grey Mouser or John Carter. As I've mentioned elsewhere on these forums, I was sorely disappointed after reading Gary's intro of Men & Magic, and then finding a game that never lived up to his literary examples, so I modded it from the get-go. In O/TSR D&D the "Elric" stereotype is actually your protagonist Warrior- Not terribly competent or useful without their magic weapons, armor, potions, or buffing spells from fellow companions. That drives me nuts to no end in nearly every version of D&D proper (4E being the exception- Gary was on the right track in GH, but still made items key for Fighters, and then cut them off at the knees in AD&D) Exemplars & Eidolons is the only OSR game I have encountered that allows you to recreate a John Carter type right out of the box.

More important than ALL the rules talk is how you approach a game- any game.

OD&D can be run in a Cinematic manner of course- I did it. We did it. But you have to change things, most important of which is attitudes and approach- DM and players need to work together, something many old school DMs don't like to do, instead being adversarial, or at the least completely impartial. Nothing wrong with either, but a cinematic OD&D style game requires working together to create that cinematic fictional action as no mechanics are there to encourage it- The game rules are abstract but default to "simulation" (in this case, simulation via a wargaming perspective)

[jeffb]

Wanted to add- I think that the Environment is much more important in a Cinematic style game. You need to incorporate elements of the environment into every bit of the action.

"Quick find the controls to extend the bridge"
"I think I just blasted them"

Misses and collateral damage/changes to the environment and use of the environment cinematically is the hard to learn skill.

I can't tell you how many session where I played in The Sunless Citadel, and the other players just stayed far away and plinked away at the Goblins hiding behind barricades and barrels at the entrance to Goblintown. "OK, the Goblins have cover, you take -2 to your attacks, what do you want to do" After a few missed shots," OK Magic user casts sleep". Unfortunately at first level, that was the smart play move. But it's BOOORRRRINGGGGG. The early game in most version of D&D unfortunately encourages that kind of cautious metagame play. That's not for me and never was.

[phantomtim]

Aug 22, 2021 10:57:36 GMT -6 jeffb said:

It generally refers to a game that emulates movie action, rather than more realistic action or "simulation" of the (our) real world.

<snip/>

Cinematic games, like Dungeon World, 13th Age, 4E, Fantasy Age, etc assume PCs are above average (even WAY above average in games like Exalted, or Exemplars & Eidolons) and more competent than the majority of normals in the world. They are not "zeroes to heroes". Game mechanics like minions, fray dice, stunts, luck points, etc. encourage a different sort of action/ play. Some might say more Heroic or even "Superheroic". I'm not sure I agree, it has nothing to do with heroics, you can run a cinematic campaign of cuthroat pirates and thieves, or assassins or whatever. I would say that the action is less grounded and more over the top.

This is a fantastic summary. You said it far more elegantly than I could have.

Aug 22, 2021 10:57:36 GMT -6 jeffb said:

IMO, cinematic games even do a better job with the protagonists of Appendix N we all know and love-Conan, Solomon Kane, Fafhrd & the Grey Mouser or John Carter. As I've mentioned elsewhere on these forums, I was sorely disappointed after reading Gary's intro of Men & Magic, and then finding a game that never lived up to his literary examples, so I modded it from the get-go. In O/TSR D&D the "Elric" stereotype is actually your protagonist Warrior- Not terribly competent or useful without their magic weapons, armor, potions, or buffing spells from fellow companions. That drives me nuts to no end in nearly every version of D&D proper (4E being the exception- Gary was on the right track in GH, but still made items key for Fighters, and then cut them off at the knees in AD&D) Exemplars & Eidolons is the only OSR game I have encountered that allows you to recreate a John Carter type right out of the box.

I felt the same way about AD&D when I first played it. I had a Robin Hood character in mind—an expert archer and swordsman with charisma. The results were far from my expectations. I didn't have the gaming vocabulary to express it at the time, but I wanted a cinematic game, and that wasn't the style my DM was running.