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Post by waysoftheearth on Jun 23, 2021 18:23:35 GMT -6
In CM's description of Trolls (and Ogres) 2nd Ed p30, 3rd Ed p34 we have it that:
<<Ogres are killed when they have taken an accumulation of six missile or melee hits in normal combat.>>
The next sentence qualifies this, adding:
<<Elves can kill them in three hits, and Hero-types or magical weapons kill them with a single hit.>>
The latter presumably would be fantastic combat, so it makes sense that it's a single hit.
But where does the first part come from? Is anyone aware of any literary inspiration for elves being more effective versus ogres? I wonder if this was drawn from a specific source in Appendix N, or elsewhere, or was it just a flourish of authorship?
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Elphilm
Level 3 Conjurer
ELpH vs. Coil
Posts: 67 
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Post by Elphilm on Jun 23, 2021 19:23:26 GMT -6
Chainmail (and D&D) Ogres are Tolkien's Trolls (as opposed to the "True" Trolls which are Anderson's Troll from Three Hearts and Three Lions). Given the history of Tolkien's Elves, their bonuses against Trolls (Ogres) probably have the same rationale as their bonuses against Orcs.
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Post by waysoftheearth on Jun 23, 2021 20:35:40 GMT -6
Thanks Elphilm. I agree CM-True Trolls are from 3H3L, but I'm not totally convinced CM-Ogres are "lifted direct from Tolkien", although I'm happy to be educated otherwise  CM-Orcs are certainly lifted from Tolkien. "Orcs" (in this context) are a Tolkien invention anyway, so it could hardly be otherwise. That CM separates goblins and orcs seems a bit odd (it even states that orcs are just "over-grown" goblins--not quite the Tolkien definition, but whatever). CM-Ogres don't seem so obvious to me. CM says <<what are generally referred to as Trolls are more properly Ogres>>. "generally referred to" could easily be a handwave toward centuries of folklore featuring various flavours of trolls. Moreover, Tolkien's Trolls could not tolerate sunlight, but this important feature is absent from both CM and D&D. As for Elves, Tolkien obviously has elves. But so does a wealth of folklore preceding him. Folklore often uses "elves" and "fairies" synonymously and CM has "Elves (and Fairies)". CM elves can be invisible, which is often a feature of folklorish fairies/elves, but not so much in Tolkien. D&D happens to mention "meadow elves" which might or might not be a reference to Swedish folklore--at least it's not an obvious Tolkien reference I'm aware of? Heroic, man-sized fairies/elves had been kicking around since Edmund Spencer, 16th c. Tolkien had elves taller than men, whereas Gygax has them 5 ft or so. Probably, Gygax did a classic "mashup" from a bunch of sources with elves. In any event, CM allows elves with magic weapons to perform better versus orcs, whereas is simply plain old elves who perform better against ogres. But that's all just fluff. I guess I was wondering whether there might a specific "elf blats troll/ogre" reference in any fiction that might have been an influence? |
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Post by acodispo on Jun 24, 2021 9:52:04 GMT -6
I guess I was wondering whether there might a specific "elf blats troll/ogre" reference in any fiction that might have been an influence? You know, that is tickling my brain as if I've come across a reference like that somewhere in the distant past. But so far no luck retrieving the memory. I'll keep you posted. |
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Elphilm
Level 3 Conjurer
ELpH vs. Coil
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Post by Elphilm on Jun 24, 2021 11:52:47 GMT -6
CM-Orcs are certainly lifted from Tolkien. "Orcs" (in this context) are a Tolkien invention anyway, so it could hardly be otherwise. That CM separates goblins and orcs seems a bit odd (it even states that orcs are just "over-grown" goblins--not quite the Tolkien definition, but whatever). The division between goblins, orcs, and hobgoblins is straight from The Hobbit. Gandalf warns Bilbo that "Before you could get round Mirkwood in the North you would be right among the slopes of the Grey Mountains, and they are simply stiff with goblins, hobgoblins, and orcs of the worst description." It's true that in The Lord of the Rings, Tolkien settled on "goblin" and "orc" being different words for basically the same thing, but even there, there are many divisions within Orcs, and the passage from The Hobbit could be read as a Hobbitish interpretation of this fact. Personally, I interpret D&D goblins as the smaller "snaga" and "snuffler" varieties of orcs, D&D orcs as the main bulk of their kind, and D&D hobgoblins as the militaristic Uruk-hai fighting-orcs of LOTR. |
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Elphilm
Level 3 Conjurer
ELpH vs. Coil
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Post by Elphilm on Jun 24, 2021 12:05:50 GMT -6
You might also look into Poul Anderson's The Broken Sword, where the central conflict is a war between the elves and the trolls. If you're not convinced that Chainmail Ogres are Tolkien's Trolls, perhaps you might find it more satisfying to interpret the The Broken Sword trolls as Chainmail Ogres and the Three Hearts and Three Lions Troll as the Chainmail "True" Trolls.
Either way, that's a lot of trolls!
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Post by talysman on Jun 24, 2021 12:51:00 GMT -6
CM-Orcs are certainly lifted from Tolkien. "Orcs" (in this context) are a Tolkien invention anyway, so it could hardly be otherwise. That CM separates goblins and orcs seems a bit odd (it even states that orcs are just "over-grown" goblins--not quite the Tolkien definition, but whatever). The division between goblins, orcs, and hobgoblins is straight from The Hobbit. Gandalf warns Bilbo that "Before you could get round Mirkwood in the North you would be right among the slopes of the Grey Mountains, and they are simply stiff with goblins, hobgoblins, and orcs of the worst description." Also, keep in mind that Tolkien didn't really invent orcs, he just borrowed it from Beowulf, which borrowed it from Latin. Tolkien would have been fully aware that the etymology of the French word "ogre" traces back to the same source. However, this raises the question: was Gygax aware of any of this when he added the fantasy material to Chainmail? Probably not. He may have been aware that The Hobbit mentions ogres, although it doesn't describe them in any detail to separate them from other fantasy races. |
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Post by Zenopus on Jun 24, 2021 13:45:24 GMT -6
In CM's description of Trolls (and Ogres) 2nd Ed p30, 3rd Ed p34 we have it that: <<Ogres are killed when they have taken an accumulation of six missile or melee hits in normal combat.>> The next sentence qualifies this, adding: <<Elves can kill them in three hits, and Hero-types or magical weapons kill them with a single hit.>> I can confirm that the 1st printing of Chainmail also has all of the above text, on page 41. I don't have a full copy of the 1st printing, just some auction images, but this is one of the pages that I do have an image of. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2021 18:00:18 GMT -6
The division between goblins, orcs, and hobgoblins is straight from The Hobbit. Gandalf warns Bilbo that "Before you could get round Mirkwood in the North you would be right among the slopes of the Grey Mountains, and they are simply stiff with goblins, hobgoblins, and orcs of the worst description." Also, keep in mind that Tolkien didn't really invent orcs, he just borrowed it from Beowulf, which borrowed it from Latin. Tolkien would have been fully aware that the etymology of the French word "ogre" traces back to the same source. However, this raises the question: was Gygax aware of any of this when he added the fantasy material to Chainmail? Probably not. He may have been aware that The Hobbit mentions ogres, although it doesn't describe them in any detail to separate them from other fantasy races. Tolkien didn't invent the word "Orc" or its association with death or something foul, but he's likely the person who codified them as brutish, mortal, humanoid creatures with vaguely bestial features who are often used as henchmen or frontline fodder by dark lords. That specific form of Orc definitely originated in Tolkien and has become the standard Orc over the past century. It's the Chainmail/D&D Orc for sure. |
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Post by waysoftheearth on Jun 24, 2021 18:41:55 GMT -6
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Post by waysoftheearth on Jun 24, 2021 18:43:25 GMT -6
You might also look into Poul Anderson's The Broken Sword, where the central conflict is a war between the elves and the trolls. If you're not convinced that Chainmail Ogres are Tolkien's Trolls, perhaps you might find it more satisfying to interpret the The Broken Sword trolls as Chainmail Ogres and the Three Hearts and Three Lions Troll as the Chainmail "True" Trolls. Either way, that's a lot of trolls! Awesome, thanks Elphilm. I'll check it out. |
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Post by asaki on Jun 25, 2021 0:34:52 GMT -6
CM elves can be invisible, which is often a feature of folklorish fairies/elves, but not so much in Tolkien. From Monsters & Treasure: "Elves have the ability of moving silently and are nearly invisible in their gray-green cloaks. Elves armed with magical weapons will add one pip to dice rolled to determine damage, i.e. when a hit is scored the possible number of damage points will be 2–7 per die."
So are we to understand that NPC Elves get cloaks and +1 swords, and PC Elves do not? It's hard to tell what Gary's intent was when it comes to "monster descriptions" of player races. AD&D doesn't seem to clear it up very much, either.
(I know we're talking about Chainmail, though)
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Post by rsdean on Jun 25, 2021 4:55:33 GMT -6
You might also look into Poul Anderson's The Broken Sword, where the central conflict is a war between the elves and the trolls. If you're not convinced that Chainmail Ogres are Tolkien's Trolls, perhaps you might find it more satisfying to interpret the The Broken Sword trolls as Chainmail Ogres and the Three Hearts and Three Lions Troll as the Chainmail "True" Trolls. Either way, that's a lot of trolls! A lot of trolls is in keeping with the early miniatures lines.  . Heritage, once they merged with Customcast, had at least 11 different figures in their range called “trolls” … (Yes, I know that it’s somewhat post-Chainmail…) |
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Post by derv on Jun 25, 2021 7:00:24 GMT -6
You might also look into Poul Anderson's The Broken Sword, where the central conflict is a war between the elves and the trolls. If you're not convinced that Chainmail Ogres are Tolkien's Trolls, perhaps you might find it more satisfying to interpret the The Broken Sword trolls as Chainmail Ogres and the Three Hearts and Three Lions Troll as the Chainmail "True" Trolls. Either way, that's a lot of trolls! It’s been a little while since I’ve read Anderson. I think he draws heavily from Norse mythology. I don’t have any particular examples for Elves and Trolls though. Elves were sometimes referred to as “hidden people” in folktales. Anderson also had the whole elves being vulnerable to cold steel thing. Hence they would need to be of a unique making or magical in nature. |
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yesmar
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Post by yesmar on Jun 25, 2021 7:53:39 GMT -6
It’s been a little while since I’ve read Anderson. I think he draws heavily from Norse mythology. I don’t have any particular examples for Elves and Trolls though. Elves were sometimes referred to as “hidden people” in folktales. Anderson also had the whole elves being vulnerable to cold steel thing. Hence they would need to be of a unique making or magical in nature. Andersonian Elves were from the Middle Realm and were susceptible to the effects of Cold Iron, but Dwarves IIRC were not. |
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. Heritage, once they merged with Customcast, had at least 11 different figures in their range called “trolls” … (Yes, I know that it’s somewhat post-Chainmail…)
