Swords & Wizardry Complete Boxed Set

[tdenmark]

So this arrived in the mail yesterday. I recorded my first unboxing video so you can see for yourself how it came out.

[waysoftheearth]

Thanks for posting Those shiny pages!

What print is that woodgrain box??

[tdenmark]

Jun 11, 2021 7:56:41 GMT -6 waysoftheearth said:

What print in that woodgrain box??

It's in pretty good shape, isn't it? You could even say its "mint".

[Deleted]

Barely even used, let alone abused. Not even a coffee mug stain. And you call yourself a gamer. Tut tut

[Deleted]

Some questions, if you know:

How does this differ from Swords & Wizardry Complete (the Frog God Games version, which is free in .pdf)?

From trade-dress, it looks like this is not a Frog God Games product. Is that the case?

It looks well-done, and S&W is undeniably a solid product, I'm kind of stumped on the rationale for a new boxed set though. Any insight there?

[multiarms]

Jun 11, 2021 14:09:16 GMT -6 @dungeonmonkey said:

Some questions, if you know:

How does this differ from Swords & Wizardry Complete (the Frog God Games version, which is free in .pdf)?

From trade-dress, it looks like this is not a Frog God Games product. Is that the case?

It looks well-done, and S&W is undeniably a solid product, I'm kind of stumped on the rationale for a new boxed set though. Any insight there?

I have the new box set as well.

The text is no different from Swords & Wizardry Complete in its previous 3 printings. It is split up and re-organzied into digest-sized booklets, instead of a single volume letter-sized. There is new art. 

It is definitely a Frog God Games product. It was a Kickstarter, but they are also selling it on their webstore www.froggodgames.com/product/swords-wizardry-complete-rules-box-set/

The print size in this new box set is very small, and I much prefer the original cover art and interior drawings (especially the 2nd printing with the blue Erol Otus cover). I think the single volume is much better.

The "official" reason for the new box set is that FGG was running low on stock of the S&W complete books, so they had to decide whether to do another printing or make something new.

But here's the rest of the story: by late 2019 Old-School Essentials box set was very successful, and OSE has definitely supplanted S&W as the overall most popular of the OSR retroclones for the past few years. So I think this was FGG's attempt to strike back.

I have both box sets now (OSE and S&W). I prefer the OD&D rules of S&W to the B/X of OSE. But OSE is a better product. The OSE layout, design, quality, readability, and usefulness at the table are all far superior. I wish it were not so.

Analogy: OSE is Coke and S&W is Pepsi now... I prefer the taste of Pepsi, but you have to hand it to Coke for their superior image, marketing, brand-loyalty, etc.

[tdenmark]

It is a Frog God Games product.
It is definitely heavily influenced by OSE.
I don't know what a good analogy is, they took the layout design style of OSR and tried to apply it to S&W. Unfortunately without the same design skills Gavin of Necrotic Gnome (publisher of OSE) has. Maybe like the Doors without Jim Morrison?

I tried hard to refrain from negative comments in the unboxing. If I had to sum up my feelings though what @multiarms said nailed it. I'd rather it be pushed to feel even more OD&D rather than slick like OSE.

I haven't read it yet, but the organization felt off - at a glance. Maybe it'll make more sense on closer inspection.

[geoffrey]

Jun 11, 2021 14:48:00 GMT -6 multiarms said:

I much prefer the original cover art and interior drawings (especially the 2nd printing with the blue Erol Otus cover).

I am trying to understand the reasoning that led to the conclusion, "We need to get rid of this full-color cover by Erol Otus."

It's one of Otus's better works, IMO:

[Falconer]

Honestly not a huge fan of the Otus piece. I really love all the classic S&W eds.: Mullen’s Core and White Box ed. covers as well as the BHP actual White Box.

[Deleted]

Any which way they wanna spin it, it's pretty obvious they're riding the wave of that OSE popularity. It's not just S&W doing the boxed set thing again lately. There've been a handful of OSR products in that vein lately. Forbidden Lands, etc. I thought about kickstarting this back when it was announced, but I already have Swords & Wizardry. The pdf is free online. I just didn't see the need for getting involved in this. It's cool if they're able to get some units moved at conventions to introduce new people to OD&D style gaming, of course.

[jeffb]

I've seen a few less than kind "reviews" of this new boxed set re: layout and overall "worth" compared to other similar products. One guy on yootoob was laying out the F bombs and was quite unhappy. I think tdenmark has been the only video/review I've seen where it wasn't a comparison to other product (which is great, I'd rather see it "reviewed" on it's own merit)

As for "Complete" cover art, I'm partial to the 1st print (which I think is a recycled piece from a Necromancer Games D20 era product). But I do wish they'd bring back the Mullen covers from WB and especially the original's "Green King". That would likely be the only way I was to buy another product from FGG.

Personally I think the breaking up of the game into multiple booklets or hardcover books* is a PITA, whether it's done very professionally like OSE, or mediocre like this new S&W boxed set. Especially considering the game's size. I prefer to have the whole game in one volume (like previous S&W volumes, Iron Falcon, BFRPG, LL, etc) or at the most a Player book and DM book. I don't have any use for OSE at all. The amount of volumes/books makes me shake my head- especially so considering that Tom , Dave, and Steve put out the most concise and clear version of the game ever, in 2 slim softcover booklets.




*Certainly the original golden age products have a certain charm being in little booklets, or "basic book" and a "expert book", etc.

[geoffrey]

Jun 11, 2021 18:46:40 GMT -6 jeffb said:

I don't have any use for OSE at all. The amount of volumes/books makes me shake my head...

Fortunately, there is also a single-volume publication of OSE:
necroticgnome.com/collections/old-school-essentials/products/old-school-essentials-rules-tome-print-pdf

[waysoftheearth]

Jun 11, 2021 9:15:38 GMT -6 tdenmark said:

It's in pretty good shape, isn't it? You could even say its "mint".

For sure. I hope you got the size "right"

[jeffb]

Jun 11, 2021 18:51:21 GMT -6 geoffrey said:

Jun 11, 2021 18:46:40 GMT -6 jeffb said:

I don't have any use for OSE at all. The amount of volumes/books makes me shake my head...

Fortunately, there is also a single-volume publication of OSE:
necroticgnome.com/collections/old-school-essentials/products/old-school-essentials-rules-tome-print-pdf

I'm not a fan of OSE's aesthetic, I understand that a lot of people like it, but I don't get the all good feelz everyone else does about it. I don't care for the art, and I really don't feel all the other clones or original books have vastly inferior layout or organization.


Now that's certainly a better format you posted a link to, but looks to be unavailable in the USA (sold out) and if it was available, is $40 (shipping excluded).



Now consider this-

I can get softcover Iron Falcon for myself and 4 other players for $40. Or two IF Hardcovers for $40.

I can get BFRPG softcovers for myself and 7 players for $40. Or I can get 3 BFRPG Hardcovers for the same $40.

I can get myself and 7 players softcover copies of WB:FMAG for $40

Labyrinth Lord is a bit more hefty in price. I could get 2 Softcovers for $40.00 or one hardcover

[Deleted]

Supposedly it's the layout/presentation of the OSE books people like more so than the aesthetic or contents. Like, the information being clearly segmented. Druids have their own book, etc.

I ask myself, though, if this is really necessary in a game as simple as a B/X clone. There's really not that much to learn. Like you said, you can get like eight copies of FMAG for the same price and it's a fully playable and perfectly fine OD&D clone.

To be fair, I understand OSE has new adventures and similar content coming out for it still, though. It's technically a supported system. Swords & Wizardry: Complete can also boast this, as can DCC and some other prominent OSR titles. (There's also still adventures being written for Basic Fantasy and Iron Falcon but Gonnerman works slowly.)

I think that whole "being part of a living system" thing is appealing to some people. Like, I love FMAG but it seems like the white box movement ended for the most part about five years ago and began shifting in other directions. For a while you'd get guys like Spahn doing extra classes or adventures, or things like White Star, but now he's working on Hero's Journey and the 2nd edition of that isn't even based on OD&D any more. Officially, Swords & Wizardry: Whitebox evolved into Swords & Wizardry: Light and then Continual Light, which is kind of its own thing. You don't really see a lot of additional content being made for these types of games, though. It's more like "Here's the rules. Do whatever you wanna do with 'em. I'm done." when someone puts them out.

Now, I kinda like that because as a referee I'm fully capable of making my own worlds and adventures, and I think that's more than half the fun, but there's this paradoxical element where there's also this industry and these companies whose continued existence ensures more people discover Old School. Like your Goodman Games or Frog God Games type entities. (Who does Astonishing Swordsmen? They're a good example, too.) I'm not necessarily interested in buying a lot of products any more but I'm glad this business model exists because I'm certain every time these guys go to a convention and run a game or sell some book, someone else discovers Old School, and that's cool.

I think Gavin and his OSE fall into this paradigm. He's out there on the streets getting people hooked, and maybe it's some kids who came from 5e or something and are used to buying a lot of adventure and setting books, and by golly, here's Dolmenwood! It feels familiar to them. It's like an easy buy-in to the Old School concept because it's so slick and modern-seeming in its own way. It's kind of brilliant. Not for me, but brilliant.

[jeffb]

Jun 12, 2021 5:58:45 GMT -6 @ampleframework said:

I ask myself, though, if this is really necessary in a game as simple as a B/X clone. There's really not that much to learn

Exactly. It's not and there isn't.

OSE Def seems geared toward a younger crowd of gamer who feels the need to fit into a nice box/group/fandom or authors who need a current flavor of the month system to latch on to for exposure/business reasons.

I will stick with the horrid presentation and layout of IF, WB, and my original books and just suffer

[Deleted]

Jun 12, 2021 7:40:48 GMT -6 jeffb said:

Jun 12, 2021 5:58:45 GMT -6 @ampleframework said:

I ask myself, though, if this is really necessary in a game as simple as a B/X clone. There's really not that much to learn

Exactly. It's not and there isn't.

OSE Def seems geared toward a younger crowd of gamer who feels the need to fit into a nice box/group/fandom or authors who need a current flavor of the month system to latch on to for exposure/business reasons.

I will stick with the horrid presentation and layout of IF, WB, and my original books and just suffer

It's fun whenever Gonnerman shuts someone down on his boards or YT comments when they claim something in BF or IF is hard to find lol He does it very politely and professionally but there's this undertone of "really?"

Honestly, if someone has trouble understanding something as simple as Basic Fantasy, maybe rpgs just aren't for them.

[Deleted]

I'm roughly in middle of the pack in terms of ODD74's age demographics (late 40s), and I like OSE quite a lot. That's perhaps an easier sell for me to begin with because B/X (and Holmes) are the game's sweet spot for me. But . . .

I think there's a lot to be said for more modern art and layout (not that I necessarily like all the modern art chosen). Having grown up with AD&D, it has a lot of nostalgia value for me, and I generally prefer its art to other editions. That said, people who didn't grow up it with largely don't feel that way. And I don't think it makes much sense to continue making products that ape the 70s and 80s in terms of layout when we have today's technology. I'm willing to pay a decent price for a product that takes the time and effort to make it a pleasure to read (assuming I like the content too). OSE does that.

I much prefer the consolidated rules tome for OSE (there's also a smaller version that just has the sections relevant to players, a player's handbook). But the smaller books have some utility. For example, a book that just has spells would be nice for magic-users and clerics to have at hand at the table.

[Deleted]

Yes. I do believe that's the main appeal to OSE. The compartmentalized layout. Spell book over here. Class book over there. GM has their own book, and one for monsters, etc. Different people at the same table can be in charge of different information. Maybe one player specializes in magic and holds onto that book. I can get behind all that, in theory. I already own a serviceable version of the Basic D&D game that makes perfect sense to me, so I don't personally need to own this, but it makes plenty of sense.

[geoffrey]

If I ever have to replace my B/X rules, OSE's main temptation for me is that everything therein is integrated (unlike the B/X rulebooks). In the B/X books, dragons are in one book, giants in another. Healing potions are in one book, drums of panic in another. Magic missile is in one book, conjure elemental in another. And on and on.

[tdenmark]

Jun 11, 2021 19:17:58 GMT -6 waysoftheearth said:

Jun 11, 2021 9:15:38 GMT -6 tdenmark said:

It's in pretty good shape, isn't it? You could even say its "mint".

For sure. I hope you got the size "right"

For those who don't get the inside joke I posted sometime ago about my replica box I had manufactured to slavishly exacting specifications with fine tuned color and woodgrain texture. It was a lot of work, and if I do say so myself it came out perfect.

It was a prototype for a project I'm considering kickstarting. Covid kind of threw a monkey wrench into everything as manufacturing in China was heavily effected. Of course since then a few other projects got in the way and I'm working on the Princess of the Red Planet adventure.

What would anyone think of an LBB edition of WotRP core rules, with a planetary bestiary, and the adventure, and other goodies like character sheets, in a replica box like this? Kind of simulating a "What if the original LBB set was ERB's Mars instead of generic Tolkienesque fantasy" (granted there is a lot of ERB in those early books)

Mind you, this isn't cheap to make.

[tdenmark]

I admire OSE. It is polished, organized, and produced to a high level of quality. Something this set S&W is really missing. The organization of OSE cannot be emphasized enough, the way every little nugget of info is placed precisely and clearly exactly where it needs to be for maximum clarity especially optimized for quick reference at the gaming table.

I didn't want to bash on the S&W boxed set in the video because I like Matt Finch and his work. This misses the mark by quite a bit. It's not old school enough, yet not enough like what OSE did. I did go on a bit about the dice because I didn't see the point of throwing in that generic set you can buy for a buck on Amazon now days.

[tdenmark]

Jun 11, 2021 15:53:44 GMT -6 Falconer said:

Honestly not a huge fan of the Otus piece. I really love all the classic S&W eds.: Mullen’s Core and White Box ed. covers as well as the BHP actual White Box.

I'm a fan of Otus' work in general, but not so much for this piece.

[Deleted]

I actually rather like the artwork from the 1st printing of S&W.

^ Not an official link but it's been free for years and years, so. 

Anyway, this reminds me of Blight Town from Dark Souls, and that's very OSR. 

[distortedhumor]

I have the box set, my main issue is the font is very very small.

[jeffb]

An older thread bumped I see.

Has there been any scuttlebutt on the new S&W print now that Matt is back at Mythmere doing his own thing?

[ochrejelly]

Kickstarter coming soon

[tdenmark]

Mar 11, 2023 9:39:39 GMT -6 ochrejelly said:

Kickstarter coming soon

I don't need yet another version of S&W, but I was disappointed by the last boxed set. The layout was not good and it was hard to read and difficult to use at the gaming table. And the aesthetics weren't even right to evoke the classic OD&D box set feel.

BUT

If this has excellent layout I will consider backing it. I use the original S&W hardcover at the gaming table a lot.

[hamurai]

The S&W Complete just came out in German and I got the collector's edition. I'm set.

Also, the new standard cover art doesn't look appropriate at all. I'm not saying it's bad art, but it's better for a Monster Manual or for the monster section inside. As a cover for the entire book? Ugh. A reason to get the collector's edition.

[ochrejelly]

I’m an Erol Otus fan, but yeah, that cover doesn’t do it for me at all.