What is "luck"? Is Han Solo using/being used by The Force?

[Deleted]

Today I was discussing with a friend about some ideas I had adapting Star Wars to OD&D.
And one of the things he didn't liked, is because I've defined that "Fighters" could also use The Force in a Save.

A little more about those concepts before I enter in my question:

There are moments (movies, comics, animations) when a Jedi could easily solve a situation using the Force, but he didn't, and also moments when a Jedi tried to use the Force but failed. E.g. like trying to hold debris but failing as they were too heavy.

Thinking about "OD&D adaption point of view", this sounds pretty much as "magic use per day" way of using of the Force for me. You can't abuse the Force because you can't use it all the time, and sometimes you have run out of the uses, then it's not guarantee that you will succeed using it in additional attempts.

So, I've tried to design a way to balance Jedi and non-Jedi characters, and it is that Fighters don't have (granted) Force uses per day, but in a Save they still could do something.
He didn't liked the idea because then a Fighter character which is not force-sensitive would still use "Powers" in a Save.
I've said that it's not "Force Powers" in this case but Luck.
Just like Han Solo is very luck just like if the Force was leading the way for him.

He didn't agreed because Han Solo isn't Force-sensitive. That's right, but I don't remember seeing that the Force was being used or using only Force-sensitive characters.


About the Save:
I like Saving Throw mechanic a lot. It's probably my favorite mechanic of OD&D to AD&D.

How do a Fighter Save against a Dragon Breath? Well... Maybe he can bravely interpose using a Shield and holding his position. His arm might suffer burnings in contact with the almost melting shield but well, maybe that's the definition of half damage...

A Magic-User maybe was able to create a magical barrier in the last moment that blocked half of the Dragon Breath damage.

A Thief (let's use the class for more examples) might have used some magical powder he just found some months ago venturing forth an abandoned Wizard's Tower. Or maybe he can just nimbly jump to the side...

A Cleric might receive a help from his deity, or whatever.

That's what Saving Throw is for me, an abstract way of solving a situation without a clear answer about how the character did that.
If some characters can solve the same "problem" (Dragon Breath) from different ways, some of them magical, some of them mechanical, why do a "Force Save" couldn't be like that as well?

A (Fighter) Scoundrel might Save to be luck enough (Force guiding him) to jump away from the falling debris, while a (Fighter) Jedi might Save to hold the falling debris using the Force.

That's my reasoning about it, but I understand why he don't feel like it sounds reasonable, as he's not much into "old editions" (I mean, using abstraction and roleplay instead of inflexible written rules).


About the Force:
Now, you guys know way more about Star Wars than I do, because my resources are only the movies, the animations and some comics.
The novels aren't easy to find in my country. Specially the older novels.

Is Luck, being guided by The Force as well? Maybe my reasoning about the Save doesn't really hold true to the Settings?

So, I can recall two famous quotes that makes me understand The Force as I do.

"The Force is what gives a Jedi his power. It's an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us; it binds the galaxy together."


"You Must Feel The Force Around You. Here. Between You, Me, The Tree, The Rock, Everywhere"

The Force binds the galaxy together, and it's everywhere, not only on "Force-sensitive characters".

"In my experience, there's no such thing as luck"
Luck might be The Will of The Force as well. A lucky Scoundrel surviving errands is just being "guided" by The Force to still alive as much as Luke when piloting despite the scoundrel not being "force-sensitive".


So, what is "luck" in Star Wars?
Is The Force available only to force-sensitive characters?


The current draft about the character classes can be found here if you're interested in the reading.

[sixdemonbag]

In OD&D terms, force-users are magic-users. Non-force users are non-magic users, oops, I mean, Fighters. It's really that simple.

[tombowings]

To my mind, luck isn't something one uses. It isn't a resource. Instead, it's a fortunate coincidence that benefits an individual. By its very nature, luck is outside that person's control. Therefore, the very act of the player DECIDING to "use the force" is the antithesis of my conception of luck.

[Deleted]

The WEG Star Wars rules interpret luck as being the Force interceding to give people a little nudge or protective bubble now and then. They're not consciously controlling it like a Jedi would. It's got a mind of its own in these instances. In the terms of game mechanics, it's something like "having advantage" in modern D&D. It loads the dice and makes success much more likely, but only now and then.

This is lamp-shaded by Obi-Wan in Star Wars '77 with his proclamation that in his experience, there's no such thing as "luck". If the Star Wars RPG's interpretation is correct, it matches his sentiments exactly. Not luck at all. Just a passive encounter with the Force.

[Deleted]

Apr 2, 2021 21:51:00 GMT -6 sixdemonbag said:

In OD&D terms, force-users are magic-users. Non-force users are non-magic users, oops, I mean, Fighters. It's really that simple.

I don't feel it's that simple unless we're talking about multiclass characters for almost every Jedi/Sith in the Movies/Comics.
I mean, Magic-Users aren't good fighters, but a lot of "force-users" are very good Fighters at least when they're using Lightsaber.

The conversion Magic-User = Force-User doesn't hold well for our beloved Jedi if we're using the original Magic-User abilities. 

[Deleted]

Apr 3, 2021 0:14:47 GMT -6 tombowings said:

To my mind, luck isn't something one uses. It isn't a resource. Instead, it's a fortunate coincidence that benefits an individual. By its very nature, luck is outside that person's control. Therefore, the very act of the player DECIDING to "use the force" is the antithesis of my conception of luck.

I agree.
I think the term "use luck" wasn't a good choice in my rant. 

What I mean is, if "luck" is also a result of the Force will, does a Save mechanic translate well for both "Force use" moments and "Luck" moments for solving a situation in-game?

Or is luck only "non-force-willed fortunate coincidences" only?

Can things ever happen differently from what the Force have willed?

[Deleted]

Apr 3, 2021 6:19:19 GMT -6 @ampleframework said:

The WEG Star Wars rules interpret luck as being the Force interceding to give people a little nudge or protective bubble now and then. They're not consciously controlling it like a Jedi would. It's got a mind of its own in these instances. In the terms of game mechanics, it's something like "having advantage" in modern D&D. It loads the dice and makes success much more likely, but only now and then.

This is lamp-shaded by Obi-Wan in Star Wars '77 with his proclamation that in his experience, there's no such thing as "luck". If the Star Wars RPG's interpretation is correct, it matches his sentiments exactly. Not luck at all. Just a passive encounter with the Force.

Yes, I'm willing to believe this passive encounter interpretation. Unfortunately I didn't read any of the old novels that might explain the Settings better, that's why I'm not sure.

The "advantage" mechanic is a good application. I agree with the "only now and then" manifestation of the Force will, that's why I think a "Save" either for "luck" or for "force use" might translate well this sentiment, but I'm not sure if a Save is the correct in-game mechanic to apply.

What you've said about the WEG rules regarding luck as a little nudge or protection sounds like a Save to me. But maybe that's because I might be using a Save differently from what the original rules address. I ask for a Save not only on damage and life or death situations, but for what would be any obscure situation or a "skill check" in modern editions.

[Finarvyn]

Apr 2, 2021 21:51:00 GMT -6 sixdemonbag said:

In OD&D terms, force-users are magic-users. Non-force users are non-magic users, oops, I mean, Fighters. It's really that simple.

In the 70's when I ran OD&D Star Wars I based the Jedi on the Cleric instead of the Magic-user, but used a spell list which was a lot like the Magic-user's. Gave more of a "fighting spellcaster" vibe.

[Deleted]

Yeah I mean, they're Jedi Knights. The first time we see one in action, he hacks some dude's arm off with a fantasy sword. They definitely strike me as much more physical than D&D Magic-Users. They're more Paladin than anything IMO. 

[Finarvyn]

Apr 4, 2021 7:47:53 GMT -6 @ampleframework said:

Yeah I mean, they're Jedi Knights. The first time we see one in action, he hacks some dude's arm off with a fantasy sword. They definitely strike me as much more physical than D&D Magic-Users. They're more Paladin than anything IMO. 

I thought about paladin, but paladins in OD&D aren't really spellcasters so the Force seems a little out of place. I suppose one could go with Paladins who are spellcasters but that seemed to make them too powerful. That's why I chose to go with the cleric.

[Falconer]

I definitely think Han Solo’s uncanny-good piloting skills betray untrained/intuitive Force use. As TPM puts it (with regard to Anakin’s piloting ability), “He can see things before they happen.” Someone once said that Han’s saying, “Never tell me the odds” is his version of a Force invocation or prayer (“May the Force be with you” being the more obvious one; “I have a bad feeling about this” would be another). So I definitely fall on the side of “Anybody can use the Force; Jedi just train in specific techniques.”

That said, I think the WEG’s idea of Force Points nails it.

[sixdemonbag]

Apr 3, 2021 7:52:51 GMT -6 @jacksonbenete said:

Apr 2, 2021 21:51:00 GMT -6 sixdemonbag said:

In OD&D terms, force-users are magic-users. Non-force users are non-magic users, oops, I mean, Fighters. It's really that simple.

I don't feel it's that simple unless we're talking about multiclass characters for almost every Jedi/Sith in the Movies/Comics.
I mean, Magic-Users aren't good fighters, but a lot of "force-users" are very good Fighters at least when they're using Lightsaber.

The conversion Magic-User = Force-User doesn't hold well for our beloved Jedi if we're using the original Magic-User abilities. 

Just treat lightsabers as jedi-only staves (or magic swords) and now M-Us (Jedis) are now great fighters! M-Us can be great fighters with the right gear and training (spells.)

AFAIK, wizards (or space wizards) can still be super strong and agile even within an OD&D framework. The biggest thing that separates force-users from force-insensitives are their magic powers and skill with lightsabers. Just think spells and staves instead.

[sixdemonbag]

Apr 4, 2021 5:25:18 GMT -6 Finarvyn said:

Apr 2, 2021 21:51:00 GMT -6 sixdemonbag said:

In OD&D terms, force-users are magic-users. Non-force users are non-magic users, oops, I mean, Fighters. It's really that simple.

In the 70's when I ran OD&D Star Wars I based the Jedi on the Cleric instead of the Magic-user, but used a spell list which was a lot like the Magic-user's. Gave more of a "fighting spellcaster" vibe.

That's a good compromise to separate the more "warrior-like" Jedi from the more "old and wise" Jedi (or general force-users.)

[Falconer]

Yeah, and you know, within the OT there is a difference between a Jedi Knight (Ben) and a Jedi Master (Yoda). Furthermore, all Jedi Knights in the OT are humans, take it FWIW.

[sixdemonbag]

Apr 5, 2021 10:53:27 GMT -6 Falconer said:

Yeah, and you know, within the OT there is a difference between a Jedi Knight (Ben) and a Jedi Master (Yoda). Furthermore, all Jedi Knights in the OT are humans, take it FWIW.

Good point. And likewise, on the dark-side, the differences between the more battle-hardened Vader (Lord title and all, now focused on domain-play, but also similar to an evil cleric) and the manipulation-oriented Emperor who's putting out classic evil-wizard in a tower vibes with lots of lightning bolt slots available.

At the end of RotJ, obviously Palpy's Geas spell had worn off Vader and Luke made his save vs Charm Person roll.

Also, with Yoda's age and ears, he's more of an elf-type to me (well, an elf with a sense of humor.)

[Falconer]

Hmm, in the ESB Radio Drama, Luke calls Yoda a goblin or a gremlin or something like that. I need to go listen to it again!

[Starbeard]

Apologies for deep diving into nerd territory here (and I hope this doesn't stray too far into discussing real world religion — no worries if you want to steer away, mods):

I always interpreted Ben's statements in SW to mean that the Force flows through everyone, it's just that those with the Gift can feel it tangibly and therefore guide its flow. In other words, Han is definitely guided by the Force, no matter what his own flawed perception is.

I don't think I ever really considered that the movie could be interpreted any other way, actually. It all seemed fairly obvious—but then that could also be because I was already used to the standard language of youth oriented Protestant doctrine (my family had a lot of pastors), which tended to focus on the implied distinctions between fate and free will, luck and divine plan—and specifically, arguing how there is no such thing as Fate despite God already knowing the future, and why there is no such thing as Luck because that implies that there are aspects of the universe that are outside of God's plan.

Knowing that GL was raised Methodist and apparently still describes himself that way, it might not be a coincidence that I heard Ben's words as sounding so familiar as to be without need for further explanation: the Force is the golden thread of the universe, obviously not an analogue for the Holy Spirit but Ben sure makes it sound like they act very similarly anyway; specifically, that the Force is what it is, and flows where it flows, whether or not you feel it or even believe in it.

Obviously there's a lot of eastern influence there too, and this wouldn't be the first time I've harped on about how a lot of Jedi debate simply fades away if you just look at Chan Buddhism—but I'd also argue in this case that it Buddhist influence conceptualized with terminology learned from Protestant Free Will theology.

This is the first I've really tried deconstructing my thoughts on the subject though, so I might change my story. I definitely think my gut view was already firmly in place when I picked up WEG's Star Wars RPG, and that too seemed to make perfect sense in how Force points worked; but then it may be that I'm getting it backwards and actually playing the Star Wars RPG is what caused me to go back and develop a definite intuition about how the Force works in the movies. Who knows!