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Post by geoffrey on Mar 27, 2021 21:05:05 GMT -6
link: www.bbc.com/culture/article/20200430-star-wars-why-the-empire-strikes-back-is-overratedOf course, The Empire Strikes Back (TESB) is completely awesome compared to the prequel trilogy, the sequel trilogy, and the two anthology films. That said, it does suffer from at least some of the flaws mentioned in the article. I particularly like the point that the very first word of the opening crawl essentially blows-off the 1977 Star Wars film. I also regret TESB's focus on smooching and relationships. I'm much more interested in rated PG space-fantasy action for boys.  |
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Post by Finarvyn on Mar 28, 2021 4:44:17 GMT -6
I hear what you are saying. I haven't clicked on the link yet, but the topic in general is close to my heart. I remember the years in between Star Wars and TESB fondly. My group were just getting into high school, had been playing OD&D for a few years, and played our own homebrew Star Wars campaigns using OD&D and based on the original movie, the Brian Daly Han Solo novels, and Splinter of the Mind's Eye. I feel like we were set up for a series of action romp movies and then got sucker punched by getting a soap opera. Still an exciting movie because it was in the Star Wars universe, but not all all what I had hoped to get from the franchise.
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EDIT: Just read the article and agree. Star Wars was so much better than TESB and if they had cranked out a dozen movies just like that (action-packed episodes of fighting the bad guys) I would gladly have paid money to see them all.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2021 5:39:52 GMT -6
As a piece of cinema, TESB stands atop a mountain as its own thing. It's a beautiful, class film. To anyone who argues otherwise, we have a saying in the South. "Well...bless your little heart."
I see what you guys are getting at, though. When I came along, the story was already established as this trilogy of films that tell a coherent story. The ship had sailed. Putting myself into the headspace of someone who saw the joyous romp that was Star Wars '77 and then read the comics and books and listened to the radio plays associated with that, TESB seems like a huge tonal shift and a move away from the thematic elements of Star Wars. The first movie gives one the impression of a Flash Gordon/Buck Rogers style space romp. As it turns out, that's what George used to hook people and reel them in. It's an undelivered promise. He offers something different instead.
I happen to really like the twists and turns the original trilogy took and accept it as it was presented to me on VHS tapes I still own. The scenes with Yoda on Dagobah helped me to understand the concept of "leveling up" later in RPGs. The idea that Luke can grow larger in strength and wisdom through training and learning was my touchstone for understanding the concept of xp and levels. I don't know if it would have clicked quite the same otherwise. So, I have a definite soft spot for TESB.
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Post by geoffrey on Mar 28, 2021 8:20:48 GMT -6
As a piece of cinema, TESB stands atop a mountain as its own thing. It's a beautiful, class film. To anyone who argues otherwise, we have a saying in the South. "Well...bless your little heart." Absolutely. Both the 1977 Star Wars film and TESB are awesome. It's the tonal shift that you mentioned... It's as though Edgar Rice Burroughs, after the success of 1912's A Princess of Mars, followed it up in 1915 with Dune instead of with The Gods of Mars. |
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Post by thomden on Mar 28, 2021 18:05:41 GMT -6
I have to go with Star Wars. It was a miracle that movie was made, and it was a combination of vision and luck. Empire was a bold decision though, it very well could have gone the way of most sequels and been totally mediocre.
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Post by Finarvyn on Mar 29, 2021 5:30:35 GMT -6
Well, I think it really is a perspective thing. For those who lived through it, Star Wars may rank higher than TESB from a nostalgia standpoint. (It does for me.) For those who discovered the movies after the fact, it's probably TESB. Splitting hairs, however as the two are #1 and 1a.  |
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muddy
Level 4 Theurgist
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Post by muddy on Mar 30, 2021 9:51:35 GMT -6
I remember the years in between Star Wars and TESB fondly. My group were just getting into high school, had been playing OD&D for a few years, and played our own homebrew Star Wars campaigns using OD&D and based on the original movie...
We did the same thing. I remember trying to decide what damage a light saber would do.
Saw the original about six times the summer it came out, it was amazing.
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Post by Falconer on Mar 30, 2021 10:54:24 GMT -6
I of course agree that SW77 is the unparalleled achievement. And it’s true that ESB in many ways helped reframe Star Wars as a saga rather than a serial, which has served the rest of the film installments clunkily at best. Still, it’s amazing that ESB happened at all. Usually sequels are total stinkers, and ESB on its own terms is a GOOD movie.
I still think the Zahn books of the 90s fulfill the promise of SW77 and simultaneously retroactively redeem ESB and even RotJ. As long as Vader and the Emperor are gone, and their drama with them, the series can go back to the original “Adventures of Luke Skywalker” premise. The Jedi Knight Luke Skywalker, guardian of peace and justice, and his friends, having adventures and space battles across the Galaxy.
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Post by thomden on Mar 30, 2021 11:57:08 GMT -6
the series can go back to the original “Adventures of Luke Skywalker” premise. Ahh, what could have been if the franchise hadn't been mismanaged. |
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Post by Falconer on Mar 30, 2021 13:47:18 GMT -6
Well, you can still read the books.
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Post by Punkrabbitt on Mar 30, 2021 15:48:07 GMT -6
We did the same thing. I remember trying to decide what damage a light saber would do. Based only on 1977's Star Wars, light sabers seemed to instantly kill and disintegrate the target, leaving behind only their clothing. The only time we saw one used in combat was Obi-Wan vs. Vader, and Obi-Wan vanished when hit. |
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flightcommander
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
"I become drunk as circumstances dictate."
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Post by flightcommander on Mar 30, 2021 17:03:11 GMT -6
Don't we also see someone's arm come off in the Cantina?
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muddy
Level 4 Theurgist
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Post by muddy on Mar 31, 2021 13:22:26 GMT -6
Don't we also see someone's arm come off in the Cantina? Yes, that's the sort of thing I had in mind back then - I remember thinking a more powerful sword of sharpness as a starting point.
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Post by doublejig2 on Mar 31, 2021 16:05:33 GMT -6
I would have expected a cauterized appendage (like a Resident Evil's monofilament fiber wound), but it was bloody removed from stump instead. Such is the late 1970's PG!  |
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Post by Finarvyn on Mar 31, 2021 19:25:39 GMT -6
I remember the years in between Star Wars and TESB fondly. My group were just getting into high school, had been playing OD&D for a few years, and played our own homebrew Star Wars campaigns using OD&D and based on the original movie... We did the same thing. I remember trying to decide what damage a light saber would do. My memory is a little hazy, but I think I let a lightsaber do 1d12 in the hands of a non-Jedi and had a chart for damage based on the level of the Jedi. (The max was 5d12, I think.) |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2021 7:16:49 GMT -6
Don't we also see someone's arm come off in the Cantina? "Walrus Man's" arm, yeah. It's the first Jedi action we see, a simple little bit of non-verbal storytelling. General Kenobi is not to be trifled with. He does not instigate action, but he shuts down conflict quickly and efficiently. |
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Post by Punkrabbitt on Apr 7, 2021 0:51:00 GMT -6
Don't we also see someone's arm come off in the Cantina? I completely forgot that. I think I did back then, too. We all did lol! |
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