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Post by tdenmark on Mar 11, 2021 6:55:21 GMT -6
This is weird. I'm not very familiar with LotFP, but of course am vaguely aware of it. I was listening to Bridget Phetasy's Dumpster Fire show on YouTube (she's a comedian that makes fun of whatever silliness is currently going on in popular media) and was weirded out when she did an advertising spot for LotFP. It made me acutely aware of how strange the RPG gaming hobby seems to "normies". It felt so out of place. youtu.be/rCg_MpgRGo4?t=1176 |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2021 7:08:22 GMT -6
This is weird. I'm not very familiar with LotFP, but of course am vaguely aware of it. I was listening to Bridget Phetasy's Dumpster Fire show on YouTube (she's a comedian that makes fun of whatever silliness is currently going on in popular media) and was weirded out when she did an advertising spot for LotFP. It made me acutely aware of how strange the RPG gaming hobby seems to "normies". It felt so out of place. youtu.be/rCg_MpgRGo4?t=1176James Raggi and his aesthetic are considered weird even by our gaming standards, to be honest. He does the whole metal head/shock jock aesthetic thing and that's not even really OSR or rpg. It's unique to the Lamentations line. Double-edged sword for me since so many talented artists and writers have contributed to that line and how I've personally pointed people to Broodmother Skyfortress as an old school design bible (Jeff Rients is a mensch) but the whole Heavy Metal Magazine, "too cool for your school" attitude is slightly offputting even for my tastes, especially as I get older and morph into my parents. |
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Post by ahabicher on Apr 13, 2021 7:20:43 GMT -6
Silly useless advertising that will yield no ROI aside,
I *do* run a weekly LotFP game as a text-chat game on Discord,
namely, Thursdays on 4.30 PM UTC time,
which is 6.30 pm Paris time, 5.30 pm British time and 12.30 pm New York time.
I have players absent and am down to three players this week, so if anyone is interested to jump in and take over one of six currently present Elf NPCs or one orc retainer to help the party out, I am happy to have you invited to the Discord server.
Deep knowledge of the system is not necessary,
it is mostly like B/X, which is close enough to ODnD to be understood easily.
Of course, any players who are interested to join for more than one or two sessions are also welcome.
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Post by hamurai on Apr 13, 2021 8:19:13 GMT -6
the whole Heavy Metal Magazine, "too cool for your school" attitude is slightly offputting even for my tastes, especially as I get older and morph into my parents. I feel very similar, it's like they're trying too hard to be shocking which makes it more ridiculous than anything else in my book, but I'm probably too old for this too. To me it looks like it's jumping on a waggon with shows like Game of Thrones, Vikings and all the others that followed (although they didn't start the trend), which think more blood and gore makes a better product. Which, again, puts me off. Titles like "girl thingys are Magic" are just too dumb for me to take the entire product line seriously, although I have to say I've played a one-shot and it wasn't bad, mechanics-wise. It's OSR. Like many other games. Granted, the "weird" stuff surrounding LotFP made it sell rather well, I gather, but they've had their share of drama and I'd assume that some aspects of such a product presentation might attract certain behavioural types of players and DMs. I've played with several of them in said one-shot and the then-DM is a regular of one of my groups, but he certainly falls into the "weird" category to a degree that makes some systems impossible to play with him. LotFP certainly fits his style. That said, I don't want to spoil anyone's fun with the system and I'm certainly not saying that all fans of the game are a problematic bunch! Absolutely not.Edit: Typo corrected. |
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Post by ahabicher on Apr 13, 2021 10:16:55 GMT -6
they've had their share of drama They really had -- it is a good system, though. It has one of the best economic systems that I am aware of. The horror aspect, mechanics wise, comes through everyone having an AC that is better by 2 than in standard DnD systems, and ONLY THE FIGHTER gets better at killing. So killing people remains a hard task for most people, except with firearms, which reduce AC by 5. I find this very well designed. The marketing is way off, though, yes. |
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Post by dizzysaxophone on Apr 13, 2021 11:39:24 GMT -6
they've had their share of drama They really had -- it is a good system, though. It has one of the best economic systems that I am aware of. The horror aspect, mechanics wise, comes through everyone having an AC that is better by 2 than in standard DnD systems, and ONLY THE FIGHTER gets better at killing. So killing people remains a hard task for most people, except with firearms, which reduce AC by 5. I find this very well designed. The marketing is way off, though, yes. Agreed. As a B/X clone/spinoff it is a great system, with some unique changes. The "weird" is mostly in the art and the adventures. Some is in the spells, but it is a unique twist. |
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Post by distortedhumor on Apr 16, 2021 10:44:23 GMT -6
I played one offs and so on.
The system is good, very good in fact. The marketing is unique, and actually makes me not want to play it -- but I am full dad mode these days.
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Post by hamurai on May 6, 2021 22:31:25 GMT -6
It has one of the best economic systems that I am aware of. I just now read this. How is the economic system standing out? |
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Post by Finarvyn on May 7, 2021 4:30:57 GMT -6
James Raggi and his aesthetic are considered weird even by our gaming standards, to be honest. He does the whole metal head/shock jock aesthetic thing and that's not even really OSR or rpg. It's unique to the Lamentations line. I'm not sure that it's unique any more. Free League Publishing has this odd product called "Mork Borg" which seems very heavy metal/shock jock. I haven't played either MB or LofFP but I have read through MB and it's very strange and kind of trippy. morkborg.com/ |
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Post by Deleted on May 7, 2021 13:34:44 GMT -6
James Raggi and his aesthetic are considered weird even by our gaming standards, to be honest. He does the whole metal head/shock jock aesthetic thing and that's not even really OSR or rpg. It's unique to the Lamentations line. I'm not sure that it's unique any more. Free League Publishing has this odd product called "Mork Borg" which seems very heavy metal/shock jock. I haven't played either MB or LofFP but I have read through MB and it's very strange and kind of trippy. morkborg.com/I know vaguely of it, but unless its core book depicts brutal, stylistic violence against women in particular on multiple occasions and unless it has a supplement book called "Fish F**kers", LOTFP remains in a league of its own. |
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Post by retrorob on May 7, 2021 14:40:34 GMT -6
For me LOTFP is nothing really special. I mean I like metal music, but this game is just another retroclone of B/X D&D with peculiar aesthetics - at least the core rulebook. Perhaps it gained some controversial reputation because of its author?
As for the Mork Borg, you can look into Dark Fort, "solo/micro game", inspired by Solo Dungeon Adventures. I've spent a nice evening playing it.
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Post by DungeonDevil on May 7, 2021 18:23:00 GMT -6
Yeah, LotFP has *that* kind of reputation that is...shall we say divergent or perhaps aberrant even for our Hobby?
The hostess is cute. So there's that.
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Post by Deleted on May 7, 2021 20:57:46 GMT -6
Cannot stand death metal. Love LotFP.
Few things that stand out to me...
—Art-free version is no charge and of the highest quality.
—Better Than Any Man is my all time favorite product for Free RPG Day—crazy good module.
—Fighters are the only class to get better ‘to hit’ with levels.
—Specialist class is a phenomenal version of the Thief.
—Level 1 Summon Spell is arguably a game within the game.
Raggi is an interesting fellow. I think of him as a guy who has held a grudge against the satanic panic folks for forty years. His more edgy products are almost all direct responses to a perceived provocation.
I certainly cannot begrudge anyone put off by him or the products, but I believe the hobby nets out way ahead from having LotFP around.
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Post by Elphilm on May 8, 2021 1:05:02 GMT -6
I know vaguely of it, but unless its core book depicts brutal, stylistic violence against women in particular on multiple occasions and unless it has a supplement book called "Fish F**kers", LOTFP remains in a league of its own. It's funny that LOTFP has a reputation for depicting violence against women in particular, when in reality Raggi was very deliberate about representing violence against men and women in equal measure (and violence against men is still slightly more common in the art for the core book). It's just that depictions of violence against women are so unusual for an RPG product that it colors the overall impression to a significant degree. |
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Post by retrorob on May 8, 2021 2:42:58 GMT -6
—Specialist class is a phenomenal version of the Thief. Or Ranger. You're right, the thing I liked the most about LOTFP was this class, but I've never playtested it. |
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Post by tombowings on May 8, 2021 6:28:03 GMT -6
I know vaguely of it, but unless its core book depicts brutal, stylistic violence against women in particular on multiple occasions and unless it has a supplement book called "Fish F**kers", LOTFP remains in a league of its own. It's funny that LOTFP has a reputation for depicting violence against women in particular, when in reality Raggi was very deliberate about representing violence against men and women in equal measure (and violence against men is still slightly more common in the art for the core book). It's just that depictions of violence against women are so unusual for an RPG product that it colors the overall impression to a significant degree. Very interesting observation. |
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Post by verhaden on May 8, 2021 13:10:38 GMT -6
I did one digital photo collage for him over a decade ago, and bought Battlefield: Bad Company 2 with the proceeds. Seemed pleasant enough in my brief interaction.
But did you ever wonder who the Flame Princess is? She's real, has red hair, and lives in Finland. Raggi came across her photo on the internet years ago and modeled his 'zines and books after her. When he finally found a way to get her contact information, she was understandably creeped out. His words.
As I've gotten older the edgy\shock approach has less and less appeal. Is it real? Is it a shtick? Do I really want to bother? I like Westerns, but I'll probably never end up watching Jodorowsky's El Topo.
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2021 6:59:34 GMT -6
I did one digital photo collage for him over a decade ago, and bought Battlefield: Bad Company 2 with the proceeds. Seemed pleasant enough in my brief interaction. But did you ever wonder who the Flame Princess is? She's real, has red hair, and lives in Finland. Raggi came across her photo on the internet years ago and modeled his 'zines and books after her. When he finally found a way to get her contact information, she was understandably creeped out. His words. As I've gotten older the edgy\shock approach has less and less appeal. Is it real? Is it a shtick? Do I really want to bother? I like Westerns, but I'll probably never end up watching Jodorowsky's El Topo. The parable I often give is that I'd expect to see a 14 year old with half their head shaved, blue hair, and scratching skulls and swastikas into their school desk because they're a dumb kid trying to find themselves. When a 40 year old man still carries that aesthetic, I might wanna put some distance between us. Some of my hometown players who got deeply into the Lamentations stuff as opposed to the stuff we discuss over here very much carry that aesthetic. I'm personally getting more and more like my parents as I get older, and just don't get too thrilled by stuff that's shocking for its own sake any more. |
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Post by Gynsburghe on May 9, 2021 18:42:56 GMT -6
James was a contributor to the early days of Fight On! and would occasionally be seen around these hallowed forums before he pretty much dismissed all RPG related forums/groups. Once things started rolling for LotFP, so did the controversies and allegations. I've long been a fan of Raggi's work, having initially discovered him through, yes, here. He can come across a bit socially awkward, I guess, like so many other fans of extreme metal. He really is a pretty nice guy, but he has been beat up a lot. His association with Zak Smith really, really hurt him - on a number of levels. However, LotFP truly holds onto a good market share in the OSR. The rules are truly beautiful, a very clean version of B/X or BECMI, and since I enjoy horror (and some metal) I collect his works - though I honestly just collect his adventures as reading material, it would take the 'right group' to make them work. I'm very happy to not have to read a bunch of bashing in a thread concerning Lamentations. I used to go out of my way to defend his free speech in art approach, but that is a bit more difficult in the social climate of the last few years. I highly recommend his earliest works to just about anyone with an interest in the OSR - Death Frost Doom is a masterpiece of pacing within horror, the Pembrooktonshire setting books are delightfully weird, and Hammers of the God is a mysterious delve into what happens when a culture wants its past to be hidden from outsiders. Better Than Any Man is really pretty solid, though that particular adventure is around the time that folks start to have less comfort with his subject matter - and the fact that it was a free RPG day giveaway... Now if that Referee Book ever gets done  |
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Post by cadriel on May 10, 2021 9:04:40 GMT -6
I was a fan of LotFP for a long while because it had a big part in taking the OSR beyond crappy dungeons on Lulu that looked like imitations of the old TSR modules. I was one of the few contributors to his short-lived zine, Green Devil Face, and for a long time I made it a priority to get every release for LotFP. Around the time that the Zak S. stuff hit the fan, I decided I couldn't go to bat for James any more, and stopped buying his stuff. It's 2021 and he still hasn't published the hardcover Referee Book that he crowdfunded in 2013 and promised by 2019.
I always figured the shock value of LotFP was largely marketing. I liked that James had high (if idiosyncratic) standards for art, writing, and physical product design, and thought that he did a good job making himself known in a very niche market. I did like that the game itself embraced the "horror" aspect of D&D - although I'd never object to anyone who says it went too far.
I don't follow his releases any more. I've consistently found that the stuff he published by Geoffrey McKinney was the material that made it to my table. It was much easier to pilfer from Carcosa, Isle of the Unknown, and Dungeon of the Unknown than any other LotFP materials, and those are the books I'd recommend to general audiences who aren't into the splatterpunk aspect of the game.
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Post by ahabicher on May 13, 2021 15:23:19 GMT -6
It's funny that LOTFP has a reputation for depicting violence against women in particular, when in reality Raggi was very deliberate about representing violence against men and women in equal measure (and violence against men is still slightly more common in the art for the core book). It's just that depictions of violence against women are so unusual for an RPG product that it colors the overall impression to a significant degree. Very interesting observation. Very interesting indeed. I had never paid attention to the amounts of violence in these books, and likewise never counted the receiving parties by sex or gender. But I have now. I have looked at the 5e PHB just to check and it has mostly just posing with weapons. Only 1 male-looking guard being made uncomfortable, 1 male looking giant being attacked on the cover, someone jumping somewhere with a raised axe, presumably to do violence off-screen, a monster and a woman about to begin fighting, a man attacked with magic, a woman drawing a bow to shoot someone off-screen, some beast attacked with magic, then two depictions of violence against men in the Appendix A ... and that is it. Very little violence altogether. The ODnD Single Volume Edition has 1 female elf attacked by a dragon, unhurt, and that is all of the violence going on. Compared to that, LotFP is indeed a bloodfest. The Flame Princess fights a Lamia -- does that count? -- let's say yes. Then counting violence (excluding the post-battle-scene because too many victims to count) with female victims: |||||| Okay, surprisingly few. And I even counted the sorceress that kills a bandit with magic as he tries to go for her with a dagger, with attempted violence. Male victims are many dozens, often killed by women, like the sacrificers, the hydra, or the specialist and the magic user who pops a guy's head. Obviously it is a big taboo to show violence against women, so even if a mere fraction of the depictions show that, it is perceived as shocking and "particularly". A bit akin to the thing that in movies, almost no children get hurt, with very few exceptions, and those exceptions then stand out. |
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Post by ahabicher on May 13, 2021 15:49:04 GMT -6
It has one of the best economic systems that I am aware of. I just now read this. How is the economic system standing out? Prices and wages. If you look at prices, for example, of food, and wages, then there are editions where it takes two months work for a lantern bearer until he can afford one week of rations. A longbow costs a sum that is impossible to ever afford for any commoner, like 40 gold pieces, and a large sack costs 2 gold pieces, while a bowman gets only 5 gold pieces per month as a wage. In other words, it takes 8 months of soldier work to be able to afford a private bow, and that is without arrows. A quiver full of arrows is another months wages. (Lots of people are quick to defend that and point out that it was indeed a very long-winded specialist affair to make a bow... that may be, but surely a bow was not worth 8 months of archery work.) LotFP has a silver standard, so not so many tons of gold going around as in DnD editions, but also, an archer earns 125 silver pieces a month, and a longbow costs 45 silver pieces. A night in an average inn costs 5 silver pieces. A lantern costs 3 silver pieces in a city, and 5 out in rural areas. In ADnD a longbow archer costs 4 gp a month, a shortbow archer 2 gp a month. A large sack is affordable at 12 c.p., but standard rations for a week cost 3 gold pieces. A lantern costs 12 gold pieces. So a shortbow archer must save up for half a year until he can afford a lantern, or he can buy a week of standard rations every 6 weeks. Prices are usually very player focused and just designed to sift the gold back out of a character's pockets, while LotFP tries to create a system that is halfway convincing. |
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Post by hamurai on May 13, 2021 22:41:05 GMT -6
Thanks for elaborating! This does make sense in the overall economy.
Personally, I've hardly had an issue with the pricing. We always assumed items like longbows and lanterns to be - as you mention - the work of specialists or requiring special/rare materials. That's why most militia men use slings over bows, and wooden clubs over swords, and no or patched-up armour over sophisticated protection.
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