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Post by Anathemata on Feb 28, 2021 8:58:50 GMT -6
Hello all,
Point of curiosity: in the original game, the various classes were not written up to 20th level. This only got standardized much later. Fighters made "Lord" at 9th level. Clerics made "Patriarch" at 8th. Wizards made "Wizard" at 11th. Later, Thieves made "Master Thief" at 10th. Afterwards, each class ceases to have level titles, and is called simply "Wizard, lvl 13" or whatever. But what about after that?
Question: In your game, is there an optimal "highest" level? Would you just let characters go as high as they could, adding levels past 20 as need be? Does limiting the potential number of levels feel artificial?
Or do you feel that there is a good reason for characters to "top out" at 14th level (as they do in Cook X), or some other level, but not to go all the way to 20th?
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Post by Zenopus on Feb 28, 2021 10:35:09 GMT -6
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Post by Finarvyn on Feb 28, 2021 14:28:05 GMT -6
A couple of thoughts to add: (1) The way the original game is written I tend to think of the scale below. With level 4 being heroic and level 8 essentially a one-man army, is there much reason to go higher? I like to cap my PCs at around level 8 and NPCs at 12. ---> Level 1 = Flunky ---> Level 4 = Hero ---> Level 8 = Super hero ---> Level 12 = Mythic ---> Level 13 = John Carter  (2) Accounts of players from the original campaigns suggest that by-the-book XP really grinds to a halt above "name" level, anyway. My experience mirrors this, and the only way we got characters into the 20's was by throwing out the XP system. With this in mind, level caps work pretty well. If you remove the campaign caps I suggested above you really need to redefine any race level caps as well. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2021 15:13:28 GMT -6
Question: In your game, is there an optimal "highest" level? Would you just let characters go as high as they could, adding levels past 20 as need be? Does limiting the potential number of levels feel artificial? Depends on what the stated tone and intention of that campaign is going to be going in. The pbp I'm currently running has a l imited time frame. It's going to run through the end of this December, and it's to playtest using 3lbb D&D as-written to the degree plausible to tell a choose-your-own-adventure style story. So for this specific game, I wouldn't change anything. In future games, with different goals, sure. Experimentation is the essence of this hobby. We all tinker and we all add and subtract depending on the story we're trying to tell. I've got other stories planned for the future where maybe going into space and challenging higher beings is on the table, or ruling kingdoms, or exploring the spirit realm. I think there's ways to run those types of games without running PCs up to level 20, though. That's not necessarily the only or the best way to show character growth. It's the most simple and obvious one, but by no means the only way. You can take 3 different max-level Dwarves and they might be completely different characters. In the past, as a referee, I haven't had very much fun running games for high-powered PCs. They just become damage-sponges at some point. I think there's more interesting ways of showing growth. I've been reading through my Rules Cyclopedia a lot lately and I'm somewhat inspired by the way Demi-Humans keep leveling in that. I wouldn't use it as-written but it gives me ideas about how to customize characters. Maybe your Elf character has a tendency to befriend animals for some reason. Maybe as referee I'd allow you to keep accumulating XP like a Human would, but whereas a Human would gain another level and hit die, maybe you'd gain a +1 on reactions from Animals every time. Just one hypothetical example. |
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Post by Porphyre on Feb 28, 2021 15:54:38 GMT -6
With Balrogs having 10 Hit Dice and the most powerful dragons capped at 12 HD, I tend to assume that 15 levels is a high enough endgame.
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Post by waysoftheearth on Feb 28, 2021 16:11:51 GMT -6
GDG&H can provide some guidance too; I figured out a while back that the listed demigods have (from memory) an average "fight as" of 14th level fighter. So... much above that and you're pushing beyond demigod-like fighting capability.
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Post by tdenmark on Feb 28, 2021 16:42:37 GMT -6
After 9th or 10th level the game is no longer fun to me. Things get too out of whack. You're basically playing super heroes (or practically demi-gods) at that point and vanilla D&D does not handle that well.
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Post by geoffrey on Feb 28, 2021 17:07:07 GMT -6
If using 9th-level spells, then the upper character level limit would need to be at least 18th.
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Post by Anathemata on Feb 28, 2021 20:08:19 GMT -6
A couple of thoughts to add: ---> Level 13 = John Carter Correct. John Carter is the highest possible level. |
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Post by Anathemata on Feb 28, 2021 20:16:07 GMT -6
Thanks everybody!
Guess I have some more reading to do on the boards (thanks for the links, Zenopus!).
I haven't gotten a player over 8th yet in any of my games, so I guess I have some more playing to do too!
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Post by tetramorph on Mar 1, 2021 15:11:13 GMT -6
My practical highest level is superhero and its equivalent across classes. By then I make it clear that we need to retire these characters to "semi-PC" status, running baronies, providing adventure hooks for new low levels. It does say "theoretically," no limit. But there is theory and then there is what is practical. I have come to experience the practical limit of fun play - that still feels like 'realistic' fantasy - is super heroic play. So, between levels, say, 7-11, the center being 8-10. I agree with tdenmark. Beyond that, things just get "out of whack." (Really, I find it difficult to challenge almost any character who is, say, lvl 7+). |
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Post by waysoftheearth on Mar 1, 2021 16:05:45 GMT -6
Seems to me the higher-level challenges are more geopolitical in flavour and less about combat prowess. That said, 1-8 Storm giants, 1 Beholder, 1-4 Liches, an 18th level Wizard and cohort, and similar types, can still present a combat challenge to your typical group of superheroes...
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Post by retrorob on Mar 1, 2021 16:57:27 GMT -6
The most powerful character in my campaign, Fighting-Man named Gurczen, has reached 9th level so far (after 4 years and 100 sessions). I don't use supplements, and XP is 1 point for 1 GP (not dividing by level) and 100 x monster's HD / level. Superheroic-type of play is different. No more battling rats in the cellar. Lord has his barony, retainers and soldiers (30 heavy horse, 60 armored foot), and faces different kind of danger/challenge (we use Fantasy Combat Table, so mostly Dragons, Balrogs, powerful Wizards etc.). And that's where the Loyalty rule comes in! Recently the lord lost his barony by the treachery of his great vassals (negative reaction) and negligence of allies (neutral reaction). He had to surrender and was banished from the kingdom. Life goes on for Lord Gurczen...
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Post by tetramorph on Mar 3, 2021 16:57:38 GMT -6
Seems to me the higher-level challenges are more geopolitical in flavour and less about combat prowess. That said, 1-8 Storm giants, 1 Beholder, 1-4 Liches, an 18th level Wizard and cohort, and similar types, can still present a combat challenge to your typical group of superheroes... I read you. And you are almost always right. ;) You all will probably fault me for "handing out magic items," and I am open to that critique. That said, I have found that levels do not increase character power linearly, but something more like exponentially because, they not only raise in HD, attack capabilities, and saving throws. They also acquire magic items. By the time characters are super heroic, it is not a mere issue of "combat power." It is about all the magic items. These magic items do not merely affect combat. I can throw a bunch of purple worms and unique on-offs like "beholders." But the fun of D&D is exploration and problem solving. A lot of magic items also do this for them. Gaseous form, "true seeing" (if you have it), detect evil / invisible / magic, ESP, disintegrate, wishes, detect traps, detect curse, remove curse, dispel magic, need I list more? These things make exploration and puzzle challenges difficult for this limited man to challenge in a way that still feels like I am playing D&D and offering a "vanilla" fantasy simulation. And this is something that I am committed to (and find most fun). |
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Post by waysoftheearth on Mar 4, 2021 19:28:38 GMT -6
How many magic items are "too many" is a difficult question. It's possible to reverse engineer an average/expected number of magic items from player XP requirements and the ratio of gold value (XP) to magic items in the treasure tables. The issue is there are four main sources of magic items specified: "thoughtfully placed" treasure, random dungeon treasure, random lair treasure, and those possessed by leader types encountered. The ratio in which these are encountered will be a campaign-specific thing. That said, if the number of magic items present is detracting from play, then perhaps there are too many. Some ideas for managing the volume of magic items in play might include: - Enforcing some kind of encumbrance rule, i.e., having players carry only a subset of what they may possess. A neat simplification is: The player is able to comfortably carry AC number of significant items over and above their basic pack. E.g., plate armor (AC3) allows just three significant items to be carried (maybe a sword, shield, and one other item). Mail armor (AC5) allows five items. Etc. - Diligent striking off of expendable items (arrows, charges, potions, scrolls, ...) - Use of the magic item saving throw rule (M&T p38), perhaps every time the player fails to save rather than only when he dies. - Non-consumable magic items are aligned (1-2=law, 3-4=neutral, 5-6=chaos). - Non-consumable magic items are aligned/operable in some specific condition (night/day, summer/winter, under a full moon, etc.) - Magic items except artefacts will fade over time (i.e., they run out of "power"). - M-Us/clerics can "drain" the power of magic items to "fuel" their own dispel magic and ritual type magics. - Employing cancellation, devouring, annihilation items. - Use of the relatives/inheritance rule (M&M p13) to have NPCs claim a portion of a deceased PC's estate. - TAXES! tithes and donations etc. Everyone must pay their due! Players (particularly lawful types) could/should be called up to fund/equip expeditions, missions, and even crusades called for by Lords, Kings, Popes, etc. of the realm. - Use of non-player (or other player!) funded spies and thieves to raid the legendary treasuries of overstocked PCs. - Use of ambitious/disloyal hirelings and/or retainers to beg, borrow, steal magic items from their generous/careless employer? Probably there are a bunch more great options to explore, but hopefully that's some useful input to start...  |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2021 5:40:46 GMT -6
Seems to me the higher-level challenges are more geopolitical in flavour and less about combat prowess. That said, 1-8 Storm giants, 1 Beholder, 1-4 Liches, an 18th level Wizard and cohort, and similar types, can still present a combat challenge to your typical group of superheroes... Didn't a lot of early wargames campaigns switch to Diplomacy or a similar resolution for the geo-political scale? I remember reading about it in Playing At The World. I suppose you could also "switch gears" for a D&D campaign if you really wanted. My gut feeling is that the game is better if you retire Name-Level characters and establish new Strongholds, though. I think the D&D game was really designed around low-mid level play and things beyond that point fall apart regardless of edition. |
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Post by Anathemata on Mar 9, 2021 9:01:17 GMT -6
How many magic items are "too many" is a difficult question. It's possible to reverse engineer an average/expected number of magic items from player XP requirements and the ratio of gold value (XP) to magic items in the treasure tables. The issue is there are four main sources of magic items specified: "thoughtfully placed" treasure, random dungeon treasure, random lair treasure, and those possessed by leader types encountered. The ratio in which these are encountered will be a campaign-specific thing. That said, if the number of magic items present is detracting from play, then perhaps there are too many. Some ideas for managing the volume of magic items in play might include: - Enforcing some kind of encumbrance rule, i.e., having players carry only a subset of what they may possess. A neat simplification is: The player is able to comfortably carry AC number of significant items over and above their basic pack. E.g., plate armor (AC3) allows just three significant items to be carried (maybe a sword, shield, and one other item). Mail armor (AC5) allows five items. Etc. - Diligent striking off of expendable items (arrows, charges, potions, scrolls, ...) - Use of the magic item saving throw rule (M&T p38), perhaps every time the player fails to save rather than only when he dies. - Non-consumable magic items are aligned (1-2=law, 3-4=neutral, 5-6=chaos). - Non-consumable magic items are aligned/operable in some specific condition (night/day, summer/winter, under a full moon, etc.) - Magic items except artefacts will fade over time (i.e., they run out of "power"). - M-Us/clerics can "drain" the power of magic items to "fuel" their own dispel magic and ritual type magics. - Employing cancellation, devouring, annihilation items. - Use of the relatives/inheritance rule (M&M p13) to have NPCs claim a portion of a deceased PC's estate. - TAXES! tithes and donations etc. Everyone must pay their due! Players (particularly lawful types) could/should be called up to fund/equip expeditions, missions, and even crusades called for by Lords, Kings, Popes, etc. of the realm. - Use of non-player (or other player!) funded spies and thieves to raid the legendary treasuries of overstocked PCs. - Use of ambitious/disloyal hirelings and/or retainers to beg, borrow, steal magic items from their generous/careless employer? Probably there are a bunch more great options to explore, but hopefully that's some useful input to start... Those are all excellent ideas. Thanks waysoftheearth! I suck at placing the "right amount" of treasure (which can make scaling difficult over time). It's a weak point of mine as a DM. I always feel like I'm putting too much/too little. This is a great list because it allows me to place maybe a little too much magic treasure, then roll it back. |
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