Variant monsters?

[tkdco2]

A Middle-earth campaign wouldn't have as many monsters as a regular D&D campaign. But maybe you can incorporate some monsters that don't exist in Middle-earth as variants of existing ones. It has been done already. Goblins, hobgoblins, and even bugbears have been used as variant orcs. I have been thinking about using anything from skeletons to mummies as Barrow Wights of varying power. Likewise spectres and ghosts would fall into the wraith category. These ideas don't sound too far out.

But what about adding in a hydra? Maybe it was one of Morgoth's experiments that escaped the War of Wrath and lay dormant deep under the earth for ages. This would be the only one of its kind.

Likewise, an efreeti could be a variant Balrog, or it could be a fire demon of lesser status. Like the hydra these may be somewhat rare. I have also thought about using fire giants as Balrogs after replacing the thrown boulder attack with a whip attack (the range would of course be reduced).

Do you find this idea feasible?

[Porphyre]

"Far, far below the deepest delving of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he. Now I have walked there, but I will bring no report to darken the light of day "
– Gandalf

[Falconer]

I agree in theory that anything can exist in Middle-earth, but the hydra just seems really specifically contextual. It would have to be encountered in some Greek-themed area of Middle-earth off away to the south somewhere, or else in the pits of Utumno itself.

[tkdco2]

I was thinking maybe a unique monster, based more on the Zmey Gorynych, albeit a wingless version.

[Zenopus]

The Watcher-in-the-Water in the isn't too far off from a hydra-type creature. Basically just put some eyes and sucker mouths on the end of its tentacles. There could be any number of variant horrors in the depths of ME.

[geoffrey]

"Middle-earth" means so many different things, especially since Christopher Tolkien published over a dozen volumes of his father's stories, notes, and papers.

If one is going to try to be true to the "Middle-earth" that J. R. R. Tolkien would recognize and approve, we must put all of our D&D books away and never think of them again.

I am on the other extreme, with my heart given to "Middle-earth" circa 1930 (i. e., The Hobbit and, to a less extent, "The Quenta", published in The Shaping of Middle-earth)--with the exception that I loathe a flat earth and much, much prefer a globe. Given this, I can add all the D&Disms my whimsy desires*, and it all makes a sort of weird mish-mash that I like.

Some are in the middle, having informal degrees in "Middle-earth", being intimately familiar with all of the volumes and their histories, etc. Such persons could judiciously add some D&Disms, but not all. Care and thought would be called for.

[*My motto is that if I can't have gelatinous cubes and babblers in my Middle-earth, I'm not interested. ]

[Porphyre]

Feb 28, 2021 18:22:06 GMT -6 Falconer said:

I agree in theory that anything can exist in Middle-earth, but the hydra just seems really specifically contextual. It would have to be encountered in some Greek-themed area of Middle-earth off away to the south somewhere, or else in the pits of Utumno itself.

I would easily have a Middle-Earth hydra without the regenerating head trick. 

[tkdco2]

I'd leave out the regenerating heads as well.

[Zenopus]

Another good quote, this one from the Hobbit, that supports all kinds of nasty, undescribed creatures in the underworld of Middle-earth:

There are strange things living in the pools and lakes in the hearts of mountains: fish whose fathers swam in, goodness only knows how many years ago, and never swam out again, while their eyes grew bigger and bigger and bigger from trying to see in the blackness; also there are other things more slimy than fish. Even in the tunnels and caves the goblins have made for themselves there are other things living unbeknown to them that have sneaked in from outside to lie up in the dark. some of these caves, too, go back in their beginnings to ages before the goblins, who only widened them and joined them up with passages, and the original owners are still there in odd corners, slinking and nosing about.

-Things more slimy than fish
-Things that have snuck in from outside to hide in the dark
-Original "owners" from ages past

From our monster-cataloging point of view, it is shame that Tolkien turned Gollum into merely a corrupted Hobbit, because prior to that he was an example of one of the "things" that snuck in from outside to lie up in the dark (even in the original version he still remembered living in a hole on a riverbank).

Gandalf echoes the bit about the "original owners" in LOTR, when he says:

Something has crept or been driven out of the dark water under the mountains. There are older and fouler things than orcs in the deep places of the world.

And then later when he says what Porphyre posted above.

[tkdco2]

That's definitely a good case for adding "new " monsters. Keep in mind that MERP's bestiary includes creatures from The Adventures of Tom Bombadil. It also allows to use writeups of several monsters as different versions of the creatures well known. Cold-drakes are dragons without a breath weapon, and are considered lesser threats than fire-drakes. I can use wyverns to represent them. Likewise, I can use rocs of varying sizes to represent the Great Eagles.

[Porphyre]

Mar 1, 2021 22:12:29 GMT -6 Zenopus said:

Another good quote, this one from the Hobbit, that supports all kinds of nasty, undescribed creatures in the underworld of Middle-earth:

There are strange things living in the pools and lakes in the hearts of mountains: fish whose fathers swam in, goodness only knows how many years ago, and never swam out again, while their eyes grew bigger and bigger and bigger from trying to see in the blackness; also there are other things more slimy than fish. Even in the tunnels and caves the goblins have made for themselves there are other things living unbeknown to them that have sneaked in from outside to lie up in the dark. some of these caves, too, go back in their beginnings to ages before the goblins, who only widened them and joined them up with passages, and the original owners are still there in odd corners, slinking and nosing about.

-Things more slimy than fish
-Things that have snuck in from outside to hide in the dark
-Original "owners" from ages past

Aboleths? 

[geoffrey]

Mar 1, 2021 22:12:29 GMT -6 Zenopus said:

From our monster-cataloging point of view, it is shame that Tolkien turned Gollum into merely a corrupted Hobbit, because prior to that he was an example of one of the "things" that snuck in from outside to lie up in the dark (even in the original version he still remembered living in a hole on a riverbank).

Yep. Click here for my favorite depiction of Gollum, by Tove Jansson:
www.zepe.de/tjillu/hobbit/s/085.htm

When I read The Hobbit (1937 version, natch), that is how I picture him. I find it much, much cooler than a pukey little hobbit.

[cometaryorbit]

As a kid, I imagined Gollum as a frog-man, not hobbit-like at all.

[Porphyre]

[tkdco2]

The Rankin/Bass cartoons didn't make Gollum appear anything like a Hobbit.

[tkdco2]

I am thinking of making an elite force for a game session. The Uruk-hai would use bugbear stats, and the Olog-hai would use hill giant stats.

Maybe I've been playing too much LOTRO.

As for that hydra, a unique dragon named Zmey of the Dozen Heads sounds like a fearsome opponent.

[tkdco2]

Likewise, I don't have a problem introducing green or black dragons in Middle-earth. While these types don't appear in any of Tolkien's stories, they seem like they could fit in the setting without too much trouble.

[tkdco2]

The developers of the LOTRO game added a lot of monsters not in the books to flesh out different areas.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhBiEw9kMJI&list=PL6E69EC056A963278&index=5

No reason why we can't do the same using the D&D bestiary.

[Deleted]

Feb 28, 2021 18:22:06 GMT -6 Falconer said:

I agree in theory that anything can exist in Middle-earth, but the hydra just seems really specifically contextual. It would have to be encountered in some Greek-themed area of Middle-earth off away to the south somewhere, or else in the pits of Utumno itself.

I missed this when you first posted it, but I would use the Hydra as a failed or flawed attempt to breed Dragons. It apparently took Morgoth a long time to perfect the formula before Glaurung was born. 

[tkdco2]

While I'm not averse to expanding the bestiary in my Middle-earth games, hence this thread, I want to avoid the kitchen sink approach D&D uses. That just makes a setting lose its flavor. That's not just the case for Middle-earth; this applies to other settings. Kender and draconians, for example, should be unique to the Dragonlance game. Here's a video by ivanmike1968. I have to agree with his opinion on this. Part of Tolkien's appeal for me is that you don't see all those weird monsters running around rampant.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDFFvfQK-3A

[geoffrey]

Mar 14, 2021 22:08:56 GMT -6 tkdco2 said:

Likewise, I don't have a problem introducing green or black dragons in Middle-earth. While these types don't appear in any of Tolkien's stories, they seem like they could fit in the setting without too much trouble.

Ancalagon the Black is my favorite name for a dragon ever.

[doublejig2]

But was his breath weapon acid? I think not. After all, even Gandolf suggested that the One Ring might be destroyed by dragon fire. As for the name, I agree, it is formidable.

[tkdco2]

Tolkien's dragons weren't color-coded like D&D, but not all could breathe fire.

[doublejig2]

I don't recall if the father of dragons was one that didn't breath fire.

[tkdco2]

Apr 27, 2021 12:43:46 GMT -6 doublejig2 said:

I don't recall if the father of dragons was one that didn't breath fire. One of the few cold-drakes mentioned was the one who killed Dain I and Fror.

Glaurung could breathe fire. He didn't have any wings, though.

Glaurung

Fire-drakes

[tkdco2]

Note that the MERP rulebook included monsters mentioned in Tolkien's various poems in its bestiary. All in all there are about two dozen creatures, not including normal animals.