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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2021 5:59:35 GMT -6
I have a long-term plan to get a Rules Cyclopedia campaign going again, and I'd like to focus on one specific region of Mystara or the Hollow World for the campaign. I figure this might be a good time to take a dive into the Gazetteers. Is there any one of these or a compatible series that you guys recall fondly or think would serve me best in this project? This will likely be at least next year. I'll study it in my spare time.
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Post by Vile Traveller on Jan 24, 2021 11:15:19 GMT -6
I'm sure I'm biased by my love for the B/X Known World (before it became Mystara), but my favourite remains the Grand Duchy of Karameikos. Outside that I like Glantri, too.
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Post by jeffb on Jan 24, 2021 20:37:47 GMT -6
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Post by asaki on Jan 25, 2021 3:33:05 GMT -6
I grabbed all* of them when they had a PDF bundle on sale. Karameikos seems like as good a place as any to start. I also bought a used print copy of the first Poor Wizard's Almanac. It's not quite as meaty, and takes place a few years later, but it's really cool. And I bought the 2E Karameikos boxed set, which takes place even further in the future. BTW, the Frank Mentzer Basic book had a few good pages on the town of Threshold. *Dawn of the Emperors: Thyatis and Alphatia was not included in the bundle  |
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Post by snorri on Jan 25, 2021 5:17:33 GMT -6
s far as I remember, the best one are :
GAZ3 The Principalities of Glantri
GAZ8 The Five Shires
GAZ10 The Orcs of Thar
GAZ 12 The Golden Khan of Ethengar
GAZ13 The Shadow Elves
The worst is
GAZ4 The Kingdom of Ierendi
All other are good products, even if GAZ14 The Atruaghin Clans could have been better.
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Post by jeffb on Jan 25, 2021 8:30:08 GMT -6
Having missed the initial expansion of TKW and into Mystara I really tried to get into it when I returned to D&D in the early/mid 1990s. I was expanding my collection greatly at the time and I picked up several of the GAZ series, some of the supporting books, and some of the 2E AD&D boxed sets- Karameikos, Mark of Amber, and another. I really didn't care for the treatment of the setting post the first 5 -6 B and X series modules. Like the FR, I felt TSR took a deep dive into "canon" and in doing so the setting lost much of it's mystery and charm. Thus why I linked to the "Secret History" above- these days I would just wing it from those notes, the early B/X materials and go from there.
I'd have to say out of all those TKW/Mystara products, I probably enjoyed the Karameikos boxed set the most. I did not care for the timeline changes, name changes and such, but it was far less dry of a read than GAZ1, and seemed to me to be significantly more useful in providing tools, hooks and adventure material for a DM's immediate use at his table.
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Post by cadriel on Jan 25, 2021 9:37:16 GMT -6
GAZ1 The Grand Duchy of Karameikos and GAZ3 The Principality of Glantri are my favorites. The thing to remember about the GAZ series is that they were written by freelancers who were paid by the word, and at the time TSR considered filling out the layout to be more important than, you know, actually having sufficient content; the result of this is that there's quite a bit of filler. If I were to run a Mystara game it would be in one of Karameikos or Glantri, depending on the format I wanted (Glantri would have more magic and intrigue, Karameikos would be a more traditional dungeon / hex crawling game).
Also, if you're running a Mystara based game, be sure to get both versions of the Creature Catalog. There's some overlap but they both have interesting Mystara creatures to fill out the world.
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Parzival
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Post by Parzival on Jan 25, 2021 10:02:43 GMT -6
Echoing a discussion elsewhere, I consider GAZ 1: Karameikos to be the most versatile for a Classic D&D campaign. The vaguely Slavic/Russ culture is a neat idea, but can be easily ignored for a generic mid-Medieval feel, as really only the art is strongly Eastern Europe. There’s enough political and religious intrigue in there to pursue an intrigue campaign, but neither truly drive the setting, and can be ignored in favor of a straight Heroes v. Monsters, Carve a Kingdom from the Wilderness classic campaign.
I’ll agree with others that Glantri may be the most original of the settings, with a heavy emphasis on intrigue and no clear “good” guys— even the Lawful rulers of the place still outlaw (and execute) clerics for being clerics, and treat dwarves as lab rats without rights. With those elements in place, it’s hard to have a classic Law v. Chaos (or Good v. Evil) campaign in Glantri and maintain the theme of the setting.
I like the Dwarves of Rockhome for its thorough exploration of Dwarf Culture (very much a traditional fantasy view). The Elves of Alfheim is a bit less effective as a study of Elf culture, but is a great source for making the Elf class more than just a Fighter/Magic-user who can find secret doors. The Shadow Elves offers a different approach to the “Drow” concept (though they’re not Drow by any stretch), but has some really bizarre weirdness going on as it tries to create a source of magic and link up with Arneson’s Blackmoor setting (at least in name).
Northern Reaches is great for a Dark Ages/Scandinavian/Saxon England campaign with echoes of Beowulf and the Norse Sagas.
The rest are very culturally specific, and a mixed bag.
Ylauri is nifty as a (1980’s America) treatment of the Arabian Nights setting— if you like The Thief of Baghdad, Ray Harryhausen’s Sinbad movies, or Aladdin, or want to explore ancient Egyptian ruins, it’s a lot of fun. If you’re squeamish about that sort of fluff or want a true-to-history Middle Eastern setting, best look elsewhere.
But as others have said, for the classic quasi-medieval D&D light/high fantasy setting, Karameikos is the closest and best, or The Republic of Darokin if you want a more Renaissance feel.
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Post by geoffrey on Jan 25, 2021 13:32:54 GMT -6
Is it cheating to say X1: The Isle of Dread?  |
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Post by Finarvyn on Jan 26, 2021 10:40:08 GMT -6
All of them are at least decent. Each tends to deal with a different stereotypical culture and has new classes and spells and such.
Grand Duchy of Karameikos would probably be my starting point for a campaign, as it's the most "generic" fantasy of the bunch.
Having said that, my players have mentioned doing a campaign where everyone plays a wizard and if they do that I may use Glantri because I think there is a wizard school (or something like that) there and it may fit their campaign concept better than one where fighters are expected.
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Parzival
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Post by Parzival on Jan 26, 2021 14:48:18 GMT -6
Having said that, my players have mentioned doing a campaign where everyone plays a wizard and if they do that I may use Glantri because I think there is a wizard school (or something like that) there. There is indeed— a good deal of the text deals with this school and the unusual skills one can learn there. Much of the players’ section is an account experienced by and told to a young student at the school. There are also low level adventures suggestions revolving around the school, IIRC. One of the skills your players will probably appreciate is the ability to acquire a familiar (similar in intent and use to the AD&D spell, but not as a spell, but a process). |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2021 18:05:00 GMT -6
Between this thread and the similar one I made over at DF, I've received ample food for thought on this project, and I thank you all. Do feel free to continue the discussion, even if I don't have much more to add. It's a lively topic that's interested me for some time now. I sort of grew up with BECMI but always just used a homebrew world, which is fine for what it is but Mystara interests me immensely.
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Post by machfront on Jan 27, 2021 1:18:16 GMT -6
I’ll grant my “lazy DM” perspective, at least. Haha!
While I was once fascinated by the idea when I was younger and didn’t have to pay bills and work and take the lil one to softball, etc. Now... I’m far less certain and less enamored, I feel the same way about even early days Dragon articles now.
I do agree Gaz 1 is the sort of ‘high water mark’, I’ve quite a thing for ‘full force fantasy Renaissance’ (as opposed to pseudo-medieval or dark ages type). So, I really dig the Darokin book.
But, that’s the thing,
To me....they are only as attractive as the singular style and atmosphere one wishes to evoke or have dirt and mud and all, in their campaign, whether it’s of the very place or no...that is...one uses the Darokin Gaz as a rough guideline for their own fantasy Renaissance nation, etc.
Overall...they are really too too much. Filled with info they are...but, how much is worthy for a fantasy campaign...unless such is interested in only details and little action/adventure?
I understand there are indeed groups interested in such stuff...but even then, is all this detailed info still necessary and useful, really. I’ve my doubts.
I’ve ran some minor stuff regarding some degree of intrigue and so on, and it’s not my thing...so I fully admit bias here....but knowing X does not trust Y is usually enough...I don’t think I need to know Y’s great uncle, etc. let alone their stats....or stats or life story of anyone really.
Again... I’m lazy....but... I’m also fully immersed in the tale of, say, “Ivanhoe”....but I certainly do not need to know Sir Brian de Boir-Guilbert’s life story to get his character and motivations. Make sense?
tl;dr- maybe fun to read sometimes... maybe might give some fairly decent rough guidelines for a certain culture...but overall... not so much.
Indeed, I’m much, much, much more inspired by someone writing up a flavorful single page of whatsists for a region, etc. YMMV
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Post by tombowings on Jan 28, 2021 11:07:59 GMT -6
tl;dr- maybe fun to read sometimes... maybe might give some fairly decent rough guidelines for a certain culture...but overall... not so much. Indeed, I’m much, much, much more inspired by someone writing up a flavorful single page of whatsists for a region, etc. YMMV I find my players rarely appreciate layer upon layer of nuance and information. Perhaps it's me, maybe it's the players. Me knowing that stuff can sometimes help lend some extra tone or influence a chance encounter. But, I've come up with stuff just as good riffing on my imagination. If it really clicks? I'll note it down and my campaigns has grown from my player's input. I like that approach better (but understand and acknowledge there are many who feel different). It's a great frustration to have an involved, detailed history the players barely look at (or listen to if you're telling them about it). For the world, I find the I do best with a one-two page setting write-up and riffing on top of it. Dungeons and other adventures sites, I usually write up in a little but more detail. |
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Post by jeffb on Jan 28, 2021 11:55:49 GMT -6
I find my players rarely appreciate layer upon layer of nuance and information. Perhaps it's me, maybe it's the players. Me knowing that stuff can sometimes help lend some extra tone or influence a chance encounter. But, I've come up with stuff just as good riffing on my imagination. If it really clicks? I'll note it down and my campaigns has grown from my player's input. I like that approach better (but understand and acknowledge there are many who feel different). It's a great frustration to have an involved, detailed history the players barely look at (or listen to if you're telling them about it). For the world, I find the I do best with a one-two page setting write-up and riffing on top of it. Dungeons and other adventures sites, I usually write up in a little but more detail. Yep, that seems to work for me as well. e.g. love the Nentir Vale writeup in the 4E DMG/DMs Kit. I basically ended up transplanting that whole bit into The Known World (as presented in X1) If I have to go lengthier, something like the Scarred Lands Gaz or Dungeons & Dragons Gaz (barebones GH) for 3.0 are standouts. Big hardacks, multiple volumes, and boxed sets of old are increasingly not my thing, but I often need something to get me going. |
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Post by geoffrey on Jan 28, 2021 12:12:08 GMT -6
My favorite published D&D setting is the 25-page The Phoenix Barony by David Bezio. You can get the PDF for a dollar: www.drivethrurpg.com/product/202402/The-Phoenix-Barony-SW-White-BoxEven that, truth to tell, is not quite my ideal D&D setting. I'd give it a grade of "B". I don't have much use for histories, mythologies, chronologies, weather patterns, constellations, calendars, and all the rest. I prefer my D&D setting to be pure adventure, rather like a dungeon but outside. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2021 18:44:39 GMT -6
Which of these do you guys think has the best map, more specifically? I'm more interested in a good map and interesting encounters than deep and complex lore. The "show, don't tell" aspect. I try to keep the entire summary of the worlds I run to three paragraphs or under and let the locales themselves be the quest hooks whenever possible. If I did run a Gaz, I'd run a "tl;dr" version for sure. I understand that if players want a deep story that doesn't concern them, they'd be reading a book instead of playing D&D.
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Post by cometaryorbit on Jan 28, 2021 20:32:19 GMT -6
Glantri is cool, but it really does need a wizard-centric game; the "no clerics (or dwarves)" thing limits it for a more standard campaign.
Karameikos is definitely the "default" (closest to "standard fantasy") Gazetteer. I think the reason the Eastern European elements seem mostly cosmetic is that they are a later addition; IIRC the original idea was that Karameikos was pretty recently settled by the Duke or his recent ancestor and was pure wilderness before that. The history in the GAZ where there was a pre-existing Eastern European-like (Traladaran) human culture in Karameikos since practically forever, before the Roman-like Thyatian colonization, was kind of a retcon, I think.
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Post by jeffb on Jan 29, 2021 7:58:40 GMT -6
Which of these do you guys think has the best map, more specifically? I'm more interested in a good map and interesting encounters than deep and complex lore. The "show, don't tell" aspect. I try to keep the entire summary of the worlds I run to three paragraphs or under and let the locales themselves be the quest hooks whenever possible. If I did run a Gaz, I'd run a "tl;dr" version for sure. I understand that if players want a deep story that doesn't concern them, they'd be reading a book instead of playing D&D. For the maps Cook Marsh Expert book is a good choice for The Duchy and X1 for the entire Continent and brief gaz. Mentzer Expert Set has a Duchy map, and expanded "main regions of the continent" map, and then X1 provides the entire continent and brief gaz. It is probably the best choice. |
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Parzival
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Post by Parzival on Jan 29, 2021 13:09:44 GMT -6
Gaz 1 includes almost the full range of terrain settings except desert, steppes, and arctic. Other than that, you can do mountains, hills, forests, swamps, grassland, farmland, city, town, village, sea coast, sea voyage to Isle of Dread, etc..
Plus, if you can go to the Pandius website and find even more detailed maps (fan generated). I found a quasi-parchment map (based on the Mystara version) which I altered to fit the Gaz and use as my “this is what you know” map for the players.
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Post by doublejig2 on Jan 29, 2021 13:43:08 GMT -6
I don't have much use for histories, mythologies, chronologies, weather patterns, constellations, calendars, and all the rest. I prefer my D&D setting to be pure adventure, rather like a dungeon but outside. Lovely dichotomy! Is it the civilized man versus the barbarian all over again? Or, far rather, in a fantasy campaign then it's decadent evil high priests versus the barbarian hordes with an urgent (accursed?) environment feeding one side or another or both, or in horror, then none or in deficit! |
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Post by asaki on Jan 30, 2021 5:03:18 GMT -6
Which of these do you guys think has the best map, more specifically? The Trail Maps  |
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Post by tkdco2 on Jan 30, 2021 18:26:20 GMT -6
The trail maps are definitely awesome. I'm glad I bought them when I had the chance, as I never saw them again.
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Post by asaki on Jan 31, 2021 2:17:45 GMT -6
I'd love to get some of those maps...I have the BX and X1 maps, and the Poor Wizard's Almanac one. I scanned and printed a copy of the Expert map and colored it in. My Kingdom of Adventure box didn't come with the map |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2021 8:32:04 GMT -6
Are they very rare now? Is there not a pdf version? (Of the Trail Maps I mean.)
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Parzival
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
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Post by Parzival on Jan 31, 2021 18:58:31 GMT -6
Are they very rare now? Is there not a pdf version? (Of the Trail Maps I mean.) There are PDF versions of both the East and West Trail Maps at DriveThruRPG. I believe they happen to be a free download right now, or at least were last week. I did the download. I have one of the original physical Trail Maps, but never found the other, or I’d have grabbed it too, back in the day. |
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Post by asaki on Jan 31, 2021 21:18:38 GMT -6
I believe they happen to be a free download right now, or at least were last week. I did the download. Oh nice. Looks like it's just the Eastern Countries for now, though...and the reviews say it's a terrible scan I really need to look and see what else new they added. I'm supposed to get email notifications when they add stuff. Also, how does this work?? Looks like there's quite a bit of new stuff, and some of it is also free, like Wrath of the Immortals  Looks like the "D&D Adventures Game" isn't free anymore. |
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Post by plethon on Aug 3, 2021 18:38:55 GMT -6
I've been running a BECMI Mystara game on Sundays for a few months now and it's going really well, it's a great edition. We're using the optional Weapon Mastery rules and Skill rules which I was a little nervous about including but have actually been enjoying. The ability to use a thirty foot whip to snatch a bow out of someone's hand is just awesome, and all of the poleaxe options are really well thought out and interesting, though none of my players have used them yet.
I set the starting dungeon in the forest near Sulescu Village, in Karameikos, which seemed like a good starting point. It's close enough to some cities to enable the occasional jaunt into civilization, while the geography around the area justifies a nice unexplored dungeon.
The only major rules change I am using is changing the combat sequence slightly. The RAW state that initiative is by sides, with the winning side running through all of their actions (move, missile, magic, melee) before the other side does anything, which I don't like. I've settled on a move-counter move setup where Side A moves, then Side B moves. Side A missiles, Side B missiles, etc. with individual initiative only for people in melee.
As far as which Gazeteers to look at, I would say all of them, haha. The halfling options in Five Shires are good for players who like halflings and don't want to be limited to a low level. There's GAZ1 which has worked well as a starting point for me. I'm intrigued my the Minrothad Guilds which has rules for running a merchant shipping company. You may also want to check out the Creature Crucibles for Sea Peoples and the infamous Top Ballista if you like tinker gnomes and don't mind having literal wwI era bombers in your world. I have chosen to ignore the Hollow World side of things because I don't want to limit the depth of my dungeons...
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Post by asaki on Aug 3, 2021 20:05:33 GMT -6
I have chosen to ignore the Hollow World side of things because I don't want to limit the depth of my dungeons... Dungeon in the overworld becomes a tower in the underworld... |
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Post by Punkrabbitt on Aug 4, 2021 18:00:17 GMT -6
Orcs of Thar and Five Shires are by far the best of the Gazeteers... Thar is a fun romp of playing the bad guys, and Shires makes hobbits a serious option again.
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