Reinventing the Greyhawk Thief

[tdenmark]

A 1st level thief can pick pockets with a 20% chance of success. You know from actually playing one that is terrible, there is an 80% chance of getting caught! All their other skills are so bad there is hardly a point in even trying until higher levels, 15% to open locks? 10% to remove traps? Oops! Triggered again, the party is dead (ok, that's not exactly how it works). What if we got rid of all those skills at 1st level and instead they were really good at one thing. What if pick pockets started at a 60% chance of success? Now they have a real chance at success. Then it could improve from there and eventually become very proficient.

What if they slowly acquired the other abilities as they leveled up? Then they would be in synch with the other classes that become more useful over time. With this idea in mind here is a reimagined Greyhawk-style thief class. A note on terminology, a few things are changed to be more generalized; for example the specific term pick pockets is changed to the more general term pilfering. And climb instead of climb walls.

In this version each level opens a new Thief Class Ability. Success is not determined by a percentage, an idea I find doesn't jell with the rest of the mechanics of the game, but by a check much like a saving throw. The GM could adjust the difficulty of the task up or down. If the victim is attentive and other leery viewers in the area a pilfering attempt may be more difficult. If the victim is asleep success may almost be assured with only a roll of 1 waking the target up and getting caught. The level of the character and dexterity adjustment may be added to the roll of a d20 for success.

Prime Attribute: Dexterity, 13+ (+5% XP)
Hit Dice: 1d4
Armor/Shield Permitted: Any non metal. No shield.
Weapons Permitted: Any one-handed.



Thief Class Abilities
Pilfer: at 1st level the thief can filch small objects, pick pockets, and palm small items without being noticed.

Open Locks: at 2nd level the thief can open any lock given enough time and with the right tools.

Hear Noise: at 3rd level the thief is sensitive to sounds others may not notice, and identify what they are or what someone who is speaking in a language they understand is saying.

Climb: at 4th level the thief can climb sheer surfaces including walls and cliffs.

Backstab: at 5th level the thief can deal double damage when striking an opponent from behind. At 7th level damage is x3. At 9th level damage is x4.

Disarm Traps: at 6th level the thief can render a trap inoperable given enough time and the right tools.

Move Silently: at 7th level the thief can move at half speed without making a detectable sound.

Hide in Shadows: at 8th level the thief can become near invisible when lurking in shadows, they may slowly crawl at a rate of 1”.

Read Languages: at 9th level the thief can read any language they may have reasonably come in contact with, including magic. This ability allows them to use magic-user scrolls, though with a high degree of error. Reading languages excludes lost, ancient, extremely foreign, or dead languages that would require special knowledge to know.

Thieves Guild: at 10th level the thief becomes the master of a local thieves guild in a fortified hideout, usually in a seedier part of town, that will attract 2-12 apprentices. This hideout is difficult to find and infiltrate. They will also have political influence with corrupt officials and powerful criminal elements.

Thoughts?

[Zenopus]

In this proposal what strikes me is that no thief can climb walls until 4th level, or disarm any trap until 6th level (are traps even still a big threat at that level?), etc. I generally picture low level NPC thieves doing that kind of stuff in town. And for PCs, Pick Pockets is probably the least used thief skill, particularly at 1st level when most adventures are starting in the dungeon. It's kind of neat to force it at 1st level, so it is used more, but seems rather restrictive to character choice. I would simply allow a choice of which ability is gained at each level.

Also, if Pilfering is the only class ability at 1st level, wouldn't Pilferer make more sense as the 1st level class title?

[tdenmark]

Nov 12, 2020 20:50:54 GMT -6 Zenopus said:

In this proposal what strikes me is that no thief can climb walls until 4th level, or disarm any trap until 6th level (are traps even still a big threat at that level?), etc. I generally picture low level NPC thieves doing that kind of stuff in town. And for PCs, Pick Pockets is probably the least used thief skill, particularly at 1st level when most adventures are starting in the dungeon. It's kind of neat to force it at 1st level, so it is used more, but seems rather restrictive to character choice. I would simply allow a choice of which ability is gained at each level.

Also, if Pilfering is the only class ability at 1st level, wouldn't Pilferer make more sense as the 1st level class title?

Anyone can climb walls. 4th level thieves would just be better at it.

This is the start of the idea, not the end. I imagine the primary refinements would be fiddling around with which level they become available, or lumping some of them 2 per level. Or kind of what you're suggesting: let the player choose at each level which new one they want. I was just carefully trying to avoid a skill system.

If this proposal is bat shirt crazy, fine. It is just an idea to give them progression in the same manner the other classes have progression.

[tdenmark]

Also might give them d6 HD, for balance.

[Desparil]

I think having Climb Walls at a relatively advanced level is fine, a typical NPC thief in a town would use a rope rather than free climbing. I would be tempted to swap that with Move Silently, though, since Backstab at 5th is markedly less useful without also having Move Silently.

[tdenmark]

How about choose 2 at first level.
1 additional one at each level after that.
Some wouldn't become available until a higher level.

How married is everyone to the percentile system for the abilities? Percentage is easily converted to a d20 roll (rounded down) and would be more inline with the overall systems, similar to saves. For example, here is the original thief abilities chart roughly converted to the same system as saves:



I just wonder how much the idea can be stretched from the original GH until it doesn't feel right anymore. Is this too far?

[tdenmark]

Here is that same chart, now closer to my original proposal, and addressing the ability to Climb Walls at level 1 (still doable at 1st level, just a bit harder). Is this more aesthetically in line?

Roll 1d20 to match or beat the number. (effectively these become difficulty numbers, just like saving throws)

[Piper]

I made the thief pretty versatile IMC, giving them all the RAW abilities plus acrobat abilities from UA and a few I extrapolated from those.

I suppose you could create sub-classes of THF ... one could be the yegg, another the con-man, still another the recon/infil guy. I never found giving the thief all those abilities unbalancing with regard to the rest of the party in my campaign.

[muddy]

I've always played that the thief % were in addition to what a non-thief % would be. Put differently, for things only a thief would try.

[tdenmark]

Nov 12, 2020 20:50:54 GMT -6 Zenopus said:

disarm any trap until 6th level (are traps even still a big threat at that level?)

Double checking the numbers, in Greyhawk they don't even get a 50% chance to disarm traps until 9th level.

Even in the mighty Holmes edition the chances to disarm get no better than 15%. For all practical purposes that's nothing. 7-8 traps triggered for every one disarmed. Ouch!

My suggestion is once they can disarm traps they are pretty good at it and go up from there.

[tdenmark]

Nov 12, 2020 22:50:29 GMT -6 Piper said:

I made the thief pretty versatile IMC, giving them all the RAW abilities plus acrobat abilities from UA and a few I extrapolated from those.

I suppose you could create sub-classes of THF ... one could be the yegg, another the con-man, still another the recon/infil guy. I never found giving the thief all those abilities unbalancing with regard to the rest of the party in my campaign.

The thief-acrobat is probably my favorite thing from UA. And I always liked Diana from the cartoon.

I don't think they are unbalanced so much as less effective than they should be. Less abilities at low levels, but more effective at each, then really ramp up the abilities even more so than they are in GH is something I want to try.

[Piper]

Nov 13, 2020 0:00:52 GMT -6 tdenmark said:

I don't think they are unbalanced so much as less effective than they should be.

I addressed that, if it helps you out any, by making a check necessary only for unusual circumstances. They'll climb a wall, hide in shadows, move silently quite well under optimal circumstances. It's only when there's a complicating factor (rain/slick in the first instances, good lighting in the second, or questionable footing in the last).

[tdenmark]

Nov 12, 2020 21:47:11 GMT -6 Desparil said:

I would be tempted to swap that with Move Silently, though, since Backstab at 5th is markedly less useful without also having Move Silently.

Good point. My thinking was to add the abilities each level and increase their usefulness, so Backstab is useful and gets even better when you can Move Silently.

[retrorob]

tdenmark
d6 for HP is a must, like in the original thief rules.

[Desparil]

Nov 13, 2020 13:11:32 GMT -6 tdenmark said:

Nov 12, 2020 21:47:11 GMT -6 Desparil said:

I would be tempted to swap that with Move Silently, though, since Backstab at 5th is markedly less useful without also having Move Silently.

Good point. My thinking was to build up the abilities, so Backstab is useful and even better when you get Move Silently.

IMO it's just too infrequently-used use without Move Silently, you can basically only use it if an enemy is surprised and you are not - which averages to only a 25% success rate against normal enemies, less against those that are difficult to surprise and/or more likely to surprise you - and even then, only if the surprise encounter occurs in melee range. I think the increases to the damage multiplier does a fine job of covering the "build up over time" aspect for Backstab.

[tdenmark]

Nov 12, 2020 20:50:54 GMT -6 Zenopus said:

Also, if Pilfering is the only class ability at 1st level, wouldn't Pilferer make more sense as the 1st level class title?

Moving pilfer to 7th level to fix this.

[tdenmark]

Wow, I just did a deep dive here and over on Dragonsfoot, and boy has this dead horse been beaten over and over. I guess there is no end to the attempts to make the ideal thief class.

I particularly found this thread interesting:
odd74.proboards.com/thread/12556/thieves-more

I'm going to go have a drink and rethink my life choices. (actually I don't drink anymore so I'll probably just go play some video games)

[captainjapan]

Don't let it bother you. Each new class of "old schoolers" seems to retread the same territory. Most ideas that I think I've hit upon, someone or someone(s) first had over a decade ago on this very site. If everyone deep-dived the forums instead of just starting new threads, this place would be half as lively. Keep it up. Some of us are old enough that we won't remember reposting the same "original" ideas that we, ourselves, came up with just a few months ago, let alone several years ago. It's all new to us! Example: I just followed your link to the 2017 thieves thread and saw that  Vile Traveller had exactly the same idea I have, reading your posts - that all other classes might work merely as subclasses of the thief

Hell, I've stumbled across answers to more than a few of our recent topics, while researching something completely different, in old issues of Alarums & Excursions. Kind of cool, really.

[hamurai]

Nov 13, 2020 22:10:03 GMT -6 tdenmark said:

Nov 12, 2020 20:50:54 GMT -6 Zenopus said:

Also, if Pilfering is the only class ability at 1st level, wouldn't Pilferer make more sense as the 1st level class title?

Moving pilfer to 7th level to fix this.

Why not allow the player to choose which ability unlocks when? That way, players could focus on some abilities first and then add others. Several thieves in the group could fill different roles - a technician to remove traps and open locks, a catburglar who is used to climbing and hiding, the assassin who will start with backstab...

[Zenopus]

Nov 14, 2020 2:18:40 GMT -6 tdenmark said:

I'm going to go have a drink and rethink my life choices. (actually I don't drink anymore so I'll probably just go play some video games)

Revising/Rewriting the D&D Thief is sort of an OSR rite-of-passage. It started with Warlock and repeats itself ad infinitum.

I am partial to a solution inspired by the system used in 2E D&D. 2E implements this in a sort of complicated way (lots of rules on the page), but it is possible to implement in OD&D in a simple fashion.

Essentially, it is just a 1:1 swapping of percentages between skills.

I like this because it is just a house-rule layered over the original rules, which remain the default. Thus, you are not invalidating your rulebook, just adding an option to it. And you just tell a player making a thief that they can swap between percentages on their sheet.

Here is a 1st level Greyhawk Thief:
Open Locks: 15%
Remove Traps: 10%
Pick Pockets: 20%
Move Silently: 20%
Hide in Shadows: 10%
Climb Walls: 87%

For this example, we'll set the minimum for each skill at 5% (which can also be the chance for a non-thief; Climb Walls is minimum 60%). I'm excluding Hear Noise in this example since it is non-percentile.

Here is a Open Lock Specialist:
Open Locks: 60% (+45%)
Remove Traps: 5% (-5%)
Pick Pockets: 5% (-15%)
Move Silently: 5% (-15%)
Hide in Shadows: 5% (-5%)
Climb Walls: 82% (-5%)

Here is a Move Silently Specialist:
Open Locks: 5% (-10%)
Remove Traps: 5% (-5%)
Pick Pockets: 5% (-15%)
Move Silently: 60% (+40%)
Hide in Shadows: 5% (-5%)
Climb Walls: 82% (-5%)

This gets the thief to the 60% for one skill that tdenmark advocated for in the first post of this thread. You can bring this one skill up a bit higher if you reduce Climb Walls further.

At 2nd level the thief gets +26% points (5% for each of 5 skills plus 1% for Climb Walls) that can be further distributed. Some levels this will be +31% or +36% (due to 10% increases in one or two skills). So essentially a skill can be increased to about 60% every other level.

If these numbers still seem to low, you could then also layer over a Dex bonus, perhaps equal to Prime Requisite (Dex 13 or 14 = +5% to each skill; Dex 15+ = +10% to each skill), to give a further boost at 1st level. You can decide whether this further bonus is also adjustable or not.

[Zenopus]

Nov 12, 2020 23:57:25 GMT -6 tdenmark said:

Nov 12, 2020 20:50:54 GMT -6 Zenopus said:

disarm any trap until 6th level (are traps even still a big threat at that level?)

Double checking the numbers, in Greyhawk they don't even get a 50% chance to disarm traps until 9th level.

Even in the mighty Holmes edition the chances to disarm get no better than 15%. For all practical purposes that's nothing. 7-8 traps triggered for every one disarmed. Ouch!

My suggestion is once they can disarm traps they are pretty good at it and go up from there.

While in the original thief write up in a zine Gygax did indicate that failure set off the trap, this was curiously omitted from Greyhawk (or Holmes). Probably an oversight, but as written Greyhawk doesn't actually say that failing a Disarm Traps roll sets off the trap. Without any outside of the rulebook knowledge, it is an equally valid interpreation that failure means that the trap simply remains armed.

So I treat the Disarm Traps as a bonus roll. Failing it doesn't mean the trap goes off, it just means that the thief doesn't have any special knowledge on how to safely to disarm this particular trap.

The player of the thief or another character can still describe how they are bypassing the trap. For example, a poison needle in a lock in a chest could still be bypassed by smashing the chest open.

[tdenmark]

Nov 14, 2020 11:57:13 GMT -6 hamurai said:

Why not allow the player to choose which ability unlocks when? That way, players could focus on some abilities first and then add others. Several thieves in the group could fill different roles - a technician to remove traps and open locks, a catburglar who is used to climbing and hiding, the assassin who will start with backstab...

This is probably, ultimately, the best solution. Even though it doesn't feel very "LBB + GH". But so what, this isn't 1975.

[tdenmark]

Nov 14, 2020 13:19:49 GMT -6 Zenopus said:

Essentially, it is just a 1:1 swapping of percentages between skills.

I had to reread this a couple of times to grok it, and then when I did it was like 'duh' so simple.

Part of my disfavor with the GH thief is the percentile system. I actually love percentile systems, Runequest* is one of my all time favorite fantasy RPG's! And that is the thing, Stafford and Perrin did percentile so well that when I encounter it in D&D I feel like why don't I just play RQ instead?

So I favor converting percentile to d20, and then it feels very D&D.


*I should write a separate thread/blog post on why Runequest has failed.

[Zenopus]

Nov 14, 2020 15:57:21 GMT -6 tdenmark said:

Nov 14, 2020 13:19:49 GMT -6 Zenopus said:

Essentially, it is just a 1:1 swapping of percentages between skills.

I had to reread this a couple of times to grok it, and then when I did it was like 'duh' so simple.

Part of my disfavor with the GH thief is the percentile system. I actually love percentile systems, Runequest* is one of my all time favorite fantasy RPG's! And that is the thing, Stafford and Perrin did percentile so well that when I encounter it in D&D I feel like why don't I just play RQ instead?

So I favor converting percentile to d20, and then it feels very D&D.

Since it mostly relies on 5% increments, it'd be simple to switch to d20 with +/-1 increments. Only Climb Walls would need some alteration adjusted.

In this case, a 1st level Greyhawk Thief:
Open Locks: 3 in 20
Remove Traps: 2 in 20
Pick Pockets: 4 in 20
Move Silently: 4 in 20
Hide in Shadows: 2 in 20
Climb Walls: 17 in 20 (rounding down to 85)

Minimum is 1 in 20, except climbing is 12 in 20.

Open Lock Specialist:
Open Locks: 12 (+9)
Remove Traps: 1 (-1)
Pick Pockets: 1 (-3)
Move Silently: 1 (-3)
Hide in Shadows: 1 (-1)
Climb Walls: 16 (-1)

Here is a Move Silently Specialist:
Open Locks: 1 (-2)
Remove Traps: 1 (-1)
Pick Pockets: 1 (-3)
Move Silently: 12 (+8)
Hide in Shadows: 1 (-1)
Climb Walls: 16 (-1)

2nd level gives +5 (five +1 bonuses) to be distributed as desired. 3rd is same. 4th gives a +7 to the first five skills, but we could also give a +1 to Climb Walls every three levels. The total bonus to distribute at 4th level would then be +8.

It's still roll-under. But you could flip it all and make it roll-over like the saving throws like in the table you posted above (or call them difficulty checks - it's really the same thing with a different name). I actually posted a similar table a here a while back (and also one where the scores were converted to d6 rolls), although the hosting source nuked it later.

[Zenopus]

So writing the Greyhawk Thief as a Saving Throw/DC:

Open Locks: 17
Remove Traps: 18
Pick Pockets: 16
Move Silently: 16
Hide in Shadows: 18
Climb Walls: 3 (rounding up)

Let's go a bit further and set the target (i.e., DC) for each task to 20 (except Climbing, which will be target 8).
So then it's really:
Open Locks: +3
Remove Traps: +2
Pick Pockets: +4
Move Silently: +4
Hide in Shadows: +2
Climb Walls: +5 (DC is 8 rather than 20)
(this is analogous to giving attack bonuses rather than using a table for attacks)

So the target (DC) for each skill is 20 (except climbing), and summing up there is total bonus pool of +20 at first level. These bonuses can be assigned in any way possible to each skill.

If so, then we have:

Open Locks Specialist:
Open Locks: +12
Remove Traps: +1
Pick Pockets: +1
Move Silently: +1
Hide in Shadows: +1
Climb Walls: +4

Here is a Move Silently Specialist:
Open Locks: +1
Remove Traps: +1
Pick Pockets: +1
Move Silently: +12
Hide in Shadows: +1
Climb Walls: +4

2nd level gives +5 to distribute, 3rd level = +5, 4th level = +8, 5th level = +7. We could smooth this out to +6 per level, or +1 for each skill.

We could also play around with the target (DC). So the standard target (DC) of 20 is for a difficult task ("hard" in 5E). We could even use the same categories as 5E since they are pretty simple:

Very easy 5
Easy 10
Medium 15
Hard 20

In this was the DM could adjust the difficult of locks/traps in different parts of an adventure. Locks in town might all be Easy so that a default 1st level thief with a +3 could open them on a roll of 7 or high. "Hard" might be reserved for certain dungeon locks.

[tdenmark]

Nov 14, 2020 11:57:13 GMT -6 hamurai said:

Nov 13, 2020 22:10:03 GMT -6 tdenmark said:

Moving pilfer to 7th level to fix this.

Why not allow the player to choose which ability unlocks when? That way, players could focus on some abilities first and then add others. Several thieves in the group could fill different roles - a technician to remove traps and open locks, a catburglar who is used to climbing and hiding, the assassin who will start with backstab...

While I do like this, it is close to becoming a skill system.

What @zenopus is recommending effectively amounts to thief subclasses, a good way to go and very old-school.

Perhaps paths would be a good approach, so they are not full-on unique new subclasses, but are specializations within the general thief class. That way it still maintains the flavor of LBB+GH, but adds options.

We keep the one table, but the player chooses which path to take and which abilities and the order they come in:

The Pilferer: Pick Pockets, Open Locks, Move Silently, Hide in Shadows
The Prowler: Move Silently, Hide in Shadows, Open Locks, Backstab
The Acrobat: Climb walls, Move silently, Remove traps, etc.
and so on

Now I'm experiencing the madness and futility of this exercise. It sure is a lot of fun!

There really isn't a perfect solution, is there?

[tdenmark]

Nov 14, 2020 16:31:22 GMT -6 Zenopus said:

I actually posted a similar table a here a while back (and also one where the scores were converted to d6 rolls), although the hosting source nuked it later.

I've been using Imgur to host my images I post here, unless it is something from my blog. Everything on the internet seems to be transitory so I don't know if there are any 100% eternally reliable places to host at.

[tdenmark]

Hmm.
What if at each level they could choose 1 ability to add a 10% bonus to use (or +2 if using d20). That way nothing changes, the GH thief stays exactly as it is. And it's an easy number to remember (ie. 4th level would have a total of 40% to add across their abilities).

[flailsnail75]

I don’t know if someone has mentioned this yet because honestly I don’t have time to read the entire thread right now, but Lamentations of the Flame Princess has a really great D6 based thieving skills mechanic.

[doublejig2]

Thieves and the loot!