Regarding saves against poison...

[Deleted]

Re-reading the LBBs, this caught my eye on page 20 of Men & Magic:

Failure to make the total indicated above results in the weapon having full effect, i.e. you are turned to stone, take full damage from dragon's breath, etc. Scoring the total indicated above (or scoring higher) means the weapon has no effect (death ray, polymorph, paralyzation, stone, or spell) or one-half effect (poison scoring one-half of the total possible hit damage and dragon's breath scoring one-half of its full damage). [...]

Emphasis mine.

So from this text I gather that saving against poison deals half your maximum hitpoints (not saving presumably deals your full hitpoints in damage or just straight-up kills you which is essentially the same), or that it does half the maximum damage it is supposed to do (). Have I been running poison wrong all this time? Is this just an OD&D thing, or are there similar rules in other editions?

[Deleted]

I assume as no numerical values are supplied it's half of your character's total hp at the time.

[Deleted]

Sept 5, 2020 4:41:39 GMT -6 @ampleframework said:

I assume as no numerical values are supplied it's half of your character's total hp at the time.

That's what I gather from it. It surprised me, since for some reason I'd always assumed that saving successfully meant not being affected at all.

For example, in BECMI B(Players)4 you get the following passage in the solo play example:

This is a poisonous snake, which can be very dangerous. In the game, there is a way of finding our whether the poison hurt you or not. Roll the twenty-sided die again. If you roll a 12 or higher, that means that you dodged before the snake could inject its poison (but you still take damage from the bite). If you roll an 11 or less, your fighter takes 2 more points of damage from the poison (cross off the 7 hp and write 5).

B(DM)24:

Poison: Poison is a danger to all characters. If a character is hit by a poisonous attack (by a snake, for example) and misses the Saving Throw vs. Poison, the character will usually die. (In the D&D EXPERT rules, poison can be cured with a magic spell.)

Poison Damage
(Optional): Since "instant death" by poison can swiftly remove the fun of a game, the DM may change the effect of failure to a number of hit points of damage. The failed Saving Throw may still cause death from damage, but often will not, and the game may continue. A regular system of damage — such as 1, 2, 3, or 4 points per hit die of the monsters — is recommended.

In B(DM)43

Poison: Poisons look like normal magic potions. If any amount of this potion is swallowed, even a sip, the user must make a Saving Throw vs. Poison or die! (If you wish, you may decide that the poison will do a set amount of damage if the Saving Throw is failed.)

All these seem to mean that the effect of a successful saving throw is avoiding the effect altogether (either explicitly as in the first case, or implicitly by omission).

In AD&D, two effects are provided: one for an unsuccessful save, and another for successful saves. Whenever damage is dealt, however, it is a flat number of hit points instead of a fraction of the character's maximum hitpoints.

[cometaryorbit]

To me that line kind of implies that it works like dragon breath... except unlike breath weapons, no damage values are given. I guess it could be equal to the monster's HP, like dragons, but then what about poison from traps or alchemically-made poisons?

Maybe it was a different, abandoned, concept than the save fails = death / save succeeds = no effect one?

[retrorob]

Yellow mold kills instantaneously. It's a save or die situation.

[gemini476]

So, two notes. First of all, it's always worth remembering that the game changed. Not only does poison work differently, but Basic has different saves than OD&D: note paralysis!

Secondly, consider what has poison.

M&T p.10 Medusae "the bite of the snakes which cover its head is deadly (poison)"
M&T p.11 Wyverns "a poisonous sting in their tail and poison enough to use it repeatedly"
M&T p.15 Purple Worms "There is a poisonous sting at its tail"
M&T p.21 Other Monsters: Living Statues with "poison sword" (and fiery breath, and whip of cockatrice feathers, and is impervious to all weapons save two special ones it guards...)
M&T p.24 Potion of Poison

U&WA p.6 Tricks and Traps "there is no question that a player's character could easily be killed by falling into [...] a shallow put filled with poisonous spikes"
U&WA p.7 Unguarded Treasures "boxes with poison needles or deadly gas released when opened"
U&WA p.13

One chest is empty; the other had a poison needle on the lock. (Here a check to see if the character opening it makes his saving throw for poison.)

U&WA

This is not like later D&D, where it is assumed that even run-of-the-mill enemies have poison - or not explicitly so, at least. There is no mention of venomous animals or insects. The Medusa and Purple Worm have other instant-kill abilities as well, with the Wyvern being the only one to actively rely on the poison (in exchange for not having OD&D's extremely lethal dragonfire).

While there's a big question of "what if players get poisoned weapons", that's something you can see Gygax struggle with even in AD&D. Good characters don't use poisons, see, and in any case weapon poisons are a lot less deadly than monster poisons, which quickly degrade, and if players start to overuse poisons it's fair play to make all their opponents use poisons too.

[cometaryorbit]

The example of the Wyvern (and the Purple Worm, since wasn't it originally a "Purple Dragon"?) having poison instead of dragon breath is partially what got me wondering if poison was at one time meant to work like dragon breath: large amount of damage, save for half.

[gemini476]

The Purple Worm was a dragon back in Gygax pre-Chainmail Tolkien zine articles, yeah. It's also a dragon in Chainmail: "Finally, the Purple, or Mottled, Dragon is a rare, flightless worm with a venomous sting in its tail."

(The next sentence in the second edition is "The Basilisk and Cockatrice are probably best included as Dragons", which is strange since the actual Basilisk (Cockatrice) is included on the next page. They removed the sentence from the third edition, which makes me think it's probably a remnant from the first or something? Chainmail 2E has some editing hiccups here and there.)

[linebeck]

It’s ambiguous, but I would interpret “one half of the total possible hit damage” as a successful save v. poison means you loose half of your hit point total if you make the saving throw. Poison is thus slightly less deadly than dragon breath as you know that if you make your saving throw you will live, even if low level.

[retrorob]

gemini476

(...)the actual Basilisk (Cockatrice) is included on the next page (...)

I haven't seen the first, but I guess the Basilisk/Cockatrice paragraph was added in 2E, just like Chimerea.