D&D Survey because they're totaly not working on 6th edition

[tdenmark]

So this survey by Wizards popped up on Twitter
t.co/8q2xxlWW2u?amp=1

I mean, of course Wizards is working on 6th edition. As a business it would be irresponsible if they weren't. Still, this is the most obvious outward public sign that it is in development. The questions on the survey reveal a lot about what they are thinking. And the future is digital (obviously) and crunchy.

I noticed that thegreyelf already responded to it. So hopefully more of use old schoolers can skew the response in a favorable direction.

If I had one thing to say, I wish they understood what simplify means. It doesn't mean to dumb down. And it doesn't mean making your Player's Handbook character creation an indecipherable convoluted mess (I'm looking at you 5th edition PHB).

[DungeonDevil]

I filled out this very survey a couple of months back, IIRC.

Filled out anyway...again.

Talk about deja vu!

[Finarvyn]

Yeah, they put out a similar survey occasionally. I always mention Blackmoor as my favorite setting.

[DungeonDevil]

Aug 16, 2020 5:15:38 GMT -6 Finarvyn said:

I always mention Blackmoor as my favorite setting.

Me too!

Many of the questions seemed to be skewed toward those who use electronica or apps at the gaming table, or for power-gamers who like to max-min their PCs, etc. *shrug* I mentioned Gary and Dave a few times, mentioned Greyhawk and Blackmoor, and emphasised face-to-face gaming instead of other means, and stressed analog tools.

Odd how there was never any reference to other media, like cartoons or movies.

[Finarvyn]

Agreed. I always am negative about digital stuff and emphasize my like for physical rulebooks and dice and face-to-face gaming. I guess we're mostly old school in style here and not just in rules philosophy. I find that virtual gaming isn't anywhere as cool as in-person.

[waysoftheearth]

I just filled it out. Freakin marathon! Actually I skipped a couple of HUGE screens full of repetitive questions. It would be super helpful if these survey designs could get a bit smarter. Anyways, I feel I pushed to homebrew wheelbarrow a little.

[thegreyelf]

Aug 16, 2020 3:44:38 GMT -6 tdenmark said:

If I had one thing to say, I wish they understood what simplify means. It doesn't mean to dumb down. And it doesn't mean making your Player's Handbook character creation an indecipherable convoluted mess (I'm looking at you 5th edition PHB).

Interesting. I find the 5e PHB to be one of the best, most straightforward and streamlined versions of character creation in the history of the game. It's a basic step-by-step that walks you through making a character from start to finish and is quite clear in how the rules work. I'm genuinely curious as to what you find to be an indecipherable convoluted mess about it?

Sidenote: I got dogpiled by a few folks for saying it seems that WotC isn't interested in us old guys anymore. They just assumed right up front that I was a racist bigot ranting about WotC being "woke."

In point of fact, I was referring to the heavy push towards digital.

Just goes to show you, political idiocy and hate exists on both sides.

Rather than argue, I just blocked them and moved on. Life is more pleasant online if you just don't fight with people like that.

[captainjapan]

"Would you be more or less likely to buy a product written by one of the following designers:

a) Dave Arneson

b) Gary Gygax

c) ..."

I became confused by all the dead/retired designers on offer and answered "don't care" for all of them.

Also, I am now female for WOTC survey purposes. *wink
Hey, it can't hurt.

[captainjapan]

Aug 16, 2020 6:18:36 GMT -6 waysoftheearth said:

I just filled it out. Freakin marathon! Actually I skipped a couple of HUGE screens full of repetitive questions. It would be super helpful if these survey designs could get a bit smarter. Anyways, I feel I pushed to homebrew wheelbarrow a little.

Have you ever taken a psych test. They reword the same questions to test the consistency of your answers. I actually flipped back through some questions to remove "never" answers so I wouldn't trip up and invalidate my points.

[waysoftheearth]

Yep, I'm aware of how they do it.

[simrion]

I identify as a "Meat Popsicle."

[derv]

Serious question- why would I want to fill this survey out? Is this for people interested in 5e and the products associated with it?

[Deleted]

Aug 16, 2020 8:21:00 GMT -6 derv said:

Serious question- why would I want to fill this survey out? Is this for people interested in 5e and the products associated with it?

I've asked similar things on Reddit. The pro-survey sentiment seems to be a (somewhat misguided IMO) sentiment that if people express a love for old school settings and mechanics, WoTC will put out more content catering to that niche crowd. I'm skeptical. That doesn't seem to be the direction the majority of people getting into D&D nowadays are interested in, and their little gestures to appease the grognards always seem half-hearted at best. At the end of the day, D&D as it currently exists isn't really on my personal radar any more. If you guys are into that, great, and I wish you luck. I suspect they don't really need our business at this point. They've got a home grown crop of new consumers. I'd rather be a gamer than a consumer. I can game forever on the books I already own and my own imagination, and I intend to do just that, for my part. Different strokes for different folks. 

[captainjapan]

Well, I took the survey to skew the survey results. Sounds like I'm not the only one.

I care that more non-gamers get to start roleplaying the same way that I started playing; I got to make stuff up. I'm not talking about improv'ing funny voices at the table. I'm talking about at home or at school, when I couldn't get D&D out of my head, re-drawing maps and rolling up new henchmen and doodling pictures of new magic weapons in the margins. I consider myself a fairly creative person. I'd like more creative people to, maybe, consider playing D&D. It can turn into a minor obsession if it's allowed to. And, I mean that in the healthiest way possible:)

[tdenmark]

Aug 16, 2020 6:18:36 GMT -6 waysoftheearth said:

I just filled it out. Freakin marathon! Actually I skipped a couple of HUGE screens full of repetitive questions. It would be super helpful if these survey designs could get a bit smarter. Anyways, I feel I pushed to homebrew wheelbarrow a little.

There were a LOT of repeated questions.

[linebeck]

If they do a new edition they should make it modular in that you have the core game that resembles OD&D 3LBB (d6 damage, two classes, etc.) and present the rest of the rules as optional add ons (variable weapon damage, ability check, etc.). Then you could have the level of crunch be to taste for the player.

[tdenmark]

Aug 16, 2020 6:46:51 GMT -6 thegreyelf said:

Interesting. I find the 5e PHB to be one of the best, most straightforward and streamlined versions of character creation in the history of the game.

Interesting that we have such opposite reactions. I've had to seek out and download clarified step-by-step instructions, and not being satisfied by any of them finally scrabbling together my own version. So much flipping back and forth, so many micro-steps. So much added BS. I don't find it straight forward at all.

That said, and sorry if it's blasphemy around here, it's the best version of the game since the original LBB+Greyhawk. During this lockdown I've been playing nearly every day and deeply appreciating much of the design work they've done. My one and only real gripe is character creation in the PHB.

[tdenmark]

Aug 16, 2020 13:07:50 GMT -6 linebeck said:

If they do a new edition they should make it modular in that you have the core game that resembles OD&D 3LLB (d6 damage, two classes, etc.) and present the rest of the rules as optional add ons (variable weapon damage, ability check, etc.). Then you could have the level of crunch be to taste for the player.

That is one thing that turned me off 2nd edition. Too much of it was "here's 10* different options for this rule" and it got worse with each book they put out. I prefer the designers do the hard work of designing and balancing the ideal set of rules and present a gold standard.

And THEN I house rule for the specifics of my game group.

Here is another way to look at it. When building a house you need a cornerstone you can rely on and use to make all your measurements from. Once you've laid the foundation then build whatever house you want on it.

Still, I am 100% in support of an ancillary "Unearthed Arcana" book that is a collection of "best of" optional game mechanics and rules.



*hyperbole, but not by much.

[Punkrabbitt]

I'm not taking the survey. I like WOTC, I like that they saved D&D, but I am not theircmarket. At all. Regardless of what happens with 6th edition, I rather imagine I will buy no more than I did for 5th, which was only the Starter Box. I would like their market research to steer them to the most profitable rules profile for people who will actually buy it.

[linebeck]

Aug 16, 2020 13:21:10 GMT -6 tdenmark said:

Aug 16, 2020 13:07:50 GMT -6 linebeck said:

If they do a new edition they should make it modular in that you have the core game that resembles OD&D 3LLB (d6 damage, two classes, etc.) and present the rest of the rules as optional add ons (variable weapon damage, ability check, etc.). Then you could have the level of crunch be to taste for the player.

That is one thing that turned me off 2nd edition. Too much of it was "here's 10* different options for this rule" and it got worse with each book they put out. I prefer the designers do the hard work of designing and balancing the ideal set of rules and present a gold standard.

And THEN I house rule for the specifics of my game group.

Here is another way to look at it. When building a house you need a cornerstone you can rely on and use to make all your measurements from. Once you've laid the foundation then build whatever house you want on it.

Still, I am 100% in support of an ancillary "Unearthed Arcana" book that is a collection of "best of" game mechanics and rules that are optional.



*hyperbole, but not by much.

To be clear, when I said modular I was thinking more along the lines of a modular synthesizer where you have base oscillator/filter/amp set up but then additional modules to manipulate the sound that you can use or not use as you see fit (lfos, additional filter types, etc). The whole thing would need to work as one integrated system but could be simplified if desired.

[derv]

Wasn't there a similar survey prior to 5e? I seem to remember the rationale at that time being to influence WotC to put out the old material in pdf and to encourage an old school angle on the new design. That's been done for the most part. They put the basic game out there into the wilds for free. Were people satisfied with these outcomes?

I'm not looking down on anyone that prefers 5e, but I personally find the WotC model antithetical to the whole diy old school ethos. There really is very little they could do to change that. I actually think we were better off without the pdf's in that respect.

[captainjapan]

Is WOTC to d&d what Disney is to Star Wars? Is that a fair comparison?

[tkdco2]

Aug 16, 2020 13:30:35 GMT -6 Punkrabbitt said:

I'm not taking the survey. I like WOTC, I like that they saved D&D, but I am not theircmarket. At all. Regardless of what happens with 6th edition, I rather imagine I will buy no more than I did for 5th, which was only the Starter Box. I would like their market research to steer them to the most profitable rules profile for people who will actually buy it.

This. Plus I hate taking surveys, and I'm not on Twitter anyway.

[geoffrey]

Aug 16, 2020 13:44:00 GMT -6 captainjapan said:

Is WOTC to d&d what Disney is to Star Wars? Is that a fair comparison?

Yes.

The 1977 Star Wars film is OD&D.

The Empire Strikes Back is AD&D.

Return of the Jedi is Unearthed Arcana.

The Special Editions of the OT are the replacement orange-spined covers.

The prequel trilogy is 2nd edition AD&D.

The Disney SW movies are the various WotC editions.

[asaki]

I'm less interested in how they plan to handle 6th edition, and more interested in how they plan to deal with their abusive employees, etc.

[tdenmark]

Aug 16, 2020 14:54:11 GMT -6 asaki said:

I'm less interested in how they plan to handle 6th edition, and more interested in how they plan to deal with their abusive employees, etc.

Are you referring to the current Purge (cancel culture) environment we are living through?

This trend of employees chastising customers because they don't share political beliefs has to stop.

...I just had to delete the rest of what I wrote, it started getting political.

[tdenmark]

Aug 16, 2020 13:44:00 GMT -6 captainjapan said:

Is WOTC to d&d what Disney is to Star Wars? Is that a fair comparison?

No.

[tdenmark]

Aug 16, 2020 13:59:57 GMT -6 geoffrey said:

Aug 16, 2020 13:44:00 GMT -6 captainjapan said:

Is WOTC to d&d what Disney is to Star Wars? Is that a fair comparison?

Yes.

The 1977 Star Wars film is OD&D.

The Empire Strikes Back is AD&D.

Return of the Jedi is Unearthed Arcana.

The Special Editions of the OT are the replacement orange-spined covers.

The prequel trilogy is 2nd edition AD&D.

The Disney SW movies are the various WotC editions.

No.

[Finarvyn]

I look at it this way...
(1) I like old school games.
(2) Editions 2, 3, and 4 were veering away from that trajectory.
(3) Edition 5 is the best one since old school, and it gets played a LOT at the game store.
(4) If I answer their survey, I may be so much in the minority that they blow me off. However, if I don't answer the survey there is ZERO chance that they will get my feedback.

So, yeah questions were repetitive and all but at least I had a chance to put in a word for the Arneson and Gygax stuff. WotC spends a lot of time redoing old stuff (Giants, Ravenloft, Eberron, and so on) and so why not the really old stuff? Blackmoor may be in IP hell for all I know, but WotC must still own Greyhawk so maybe we get some of that. It can't hurt.

[tdenmark]

Aug 16, 2020 13:11:28 GMT -6 tdenmark said:

My one and only real gripe is character creation in the PHB.

Which, btw, is completely solved by using DnDBeyond.com, I have to hand it to them, they've done a very nice job with character creation and level advancement there. One of the few digital tools I actually use.

But there is nothing like getting a blank character sheet, a pencil, some dice, and the Player's Handbook and rolling up a character. It is still as fun as when I discovered the game back in 1981.