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Post by tetramorph on Jul 22, 2020 13:51:24 GMT -6
I'm trying to round out my hobby library.
Here is what I have so far:
3LBBs
All supplements
Holmes Basic
Rules Cyclopedia
AD&D core three
Deities & Demigods
MM2
Fiend Folio
UA
I do not have:
Swords & Spells
BECMI as separate things
B/X Moldvay / Cook
How important are the above?
If I have the Rules Cyclopedia, is anything missing from BECMI? It sums it all up, right?
If I have the RC and Holmes, do I need the Moldvay/Cook B/X?
Any other core D&D rule sets published by TSR that are not on my radar?
Thanks for the help.
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Post by scalydemon on Jul 22, 2020 22:42:25 GMT -6
I'd still get B/X Moldvay/Cook/Marsh if for nothing else the awesome art, layout and design, sample dungeon, text flavor etc. Lot's of reasons I guess. There have been some blog posts about the differences. Some people like the domain system in BECMI and the added level possibilities.
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Post by Vile Traveller on Jul 22, 2020 23:08:54 GMT -6
I think Swords & Spells is important for some of the clarifications not present in the 3LBBs + Supplements (10' area-of-effect for Sleep)!
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Post by scalydemon on Jul 23, 2020 0:00:02 GMT -6
I'd also add Fiend Folio to your list.
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Post by Finarvyn on Jul 23, 2020 4:38:59 GMT -6
I think your collection looks pretty good.
(1) While the individual BECMI sets are okay, the RC covers all that ground.
(2) I agree that Moldvay/Cook B/X are kind of neat, but not essential.
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Post by aldarron on Jul 23, 2020 5:59:16 GMT -6
Well, First there is also the Black Box edition of D&D, which while 95% RC derived, does have a few unique quirks of its own. Yes, there are differences between BECMI and RC. To get a handlon on this, Mr. Reapers's RC Compaions is simply invaluable. Available Free Here In fact it is fascinating reading whether you are interested in the RC or not. Anyway, in my opinion, if you have the RC and you get Reapers' Companion there is really no good reason to purchase the Becmi rules. B/X is also a bit different than Becmi, certainly in tone but also when you get into all the higher level rules in Becmi. |
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Post by retrorob on Jul 23, 2020 8:57:08 GMT -6
For me B/X > BECMI. If I were to choose one rule set only, I'd probably go for Moldvay/Cook/Marsh (except 3LBB of course!).
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Post by Falconer on Jul 23, 2020 10:58:23 GMT -6
MISC
Chainmail
Middle-earth Adventure Guidebook II
(for when you need an Elvish dictionary)
JUDGES GUILD
City State of the Invincible Overlord
Ready Ref Sheets
First Fantasy Campaign
Dungeoneer Compendium
D&D
Monster & Treasure Assortment (1977 eds.)
Best of The Dragon, Vol. I
Best of The Dragon, Vol. II
AD&D
Rogues Gallery
Fiend Folio
Deities & Demigods
World of Greyhawk (both eds.)
POST-GYGAX BUT USEFUL IN A PINCH
Oriental Adventures
Manual of the Planes
Arms and Equipment Guide
The Complete Book of Humanoids
When running B4 (with OD&D or AD&D), I had Rules Cyclopedia handy for the monster statistics, and that was just fine. I have never gotten any use out of Moldvay Basic and have never owned any X/C/M/I.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2020 12:09:42 GMT -6
I do not have: Swords & Spells BECMI as separate things B/X Moldvay / Cook How important are the above? I don't think you need any of the above, given what you already have. (It pains me a little to say so, because B/X is my favorite ruleset.) My understanding is that the Rules Cyclopedia does not contain the I in BECMI. But given your interests, I don't think that's a meaningful omission (if I am correct that it is omitted). I'd echo the earlier statement that Fiend Folio is worthwhile. |
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Post by asaki on Jul 23, 2020 12:46:52 GMT -6
I would argue that B/X is a different beast from RC. Obviously you can just get X and use that with Holmes (they have a page dedicated to using it that way), but then you're missing out on the awesome art...and in my experience, those books are fairly cheap to get anyway  My understanding is that the Rules Cyclopedia does not contain the I in BECMI. Yeah, I was going to mention that, they split I into a separate box set (Wrath of the Immortals). |
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Post by tetramorph on Jul 23, 2020 14:46:54 GMT -6
scalydemon & @dungeonmonkey , I've got Fiend Folio. I just forgot. OP updated. Thanks! Also, @dungeonmonkey , you are right, I'm not that worried about the I. Vile Traveller, how important are other rulings in S&S? I'm not likely to rule Sleep as an area-of-affect spell. But that was a clarifying example of what I would have in store. aldarron , thanks for the tip and link for the RC Companion. I'll download that and consider myself done with the BECMI to RC line of things. I think I know what you mean by differences in "tone," but I don't think I could express it. Could you elaborate on that? retrorob , that is good to know about B/X. I think, given what @dungeonmonkey & asaki have said, that I will pick those up. Thanks for all the help, folks. Just to clarify -- I'm not a collector. I love art, but I am not sure if that is a good enough reason for me to buy a rule set if I am never really going to rule from it. I just want good material from which to make sound rulings and with which to build really solidly playable campaigns. Fight on!
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Post by tetramorph on Jul 23, 2020 14:55:17 GMT -6
MISC Chainmail Middle-earth Adventure Guidebook II (for when you need an Elvish dictionary) JUDGES GUILD City State of the Invincible Overlord Ready Ref Sheets First Fantasy Campaign Dungeoneer Compendium D&D Monster & Treasure Assortment (1977 eds.) Best of The Dragon, Vol. I Best of The Dragon, Vol. II AD&D Rogues Gallery Fiend Folio Deities & Demigods World of Greyhawk (both eds.) POST-GYGAX BUT USEFUL IN A PINCH Oriental Adventures Manual of the Planes Arms and Equipment Guide The Complete Book of Humanoids When running B4 (with OD&D or AD&D), I had Rules Cyclopedia handy for the monster statistics, and that was just fine. I have never gotten any use out of Moldvay Basic and have never owned any X/C/M/I. , I can always count on you for a unique but insightful answer to my questions. Would you suggest I search out actual hardcopies of most of these? Or just find the PDFs. I have the PDF of a lot of these things or things like these. So, again, for clarification for all, I should have said -- I'm trying to round out my PAPER library. Things I can see on my shelf to remind me of what I am supposed to be thinking of/using. So, that said, the only JG thing I have in paper is the Ready Ref Sheets. I think I have most of the rest on PDF. But I am Gen-X so I actually experience print media differently and more directly than PDFs on a screen. So would you recommend I hunt those JG items down? I am particularly considering the FFC. I have found it unreadable as a PDF. Perhaps a hard copy in my hands would bring it out for me more fully? I cannot seem to find the pre-AD&D M&T Assortments. Bummer. What is the Rogues Gallery? What will I gain from it in terms of rulings/campaign creation? Oh, and I do have D&Demigods. Forgot that. OP updated. I've got to say I'm not super interested in post-Gygax stuff. Again, anything to tempt me to such madness? Thanks again. Fight on! |
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Post by Falconer on Jul 23, 2020 15:12:09 GMT -6
I’ll try to break it down when I get a chance. Remind me if I don’t.
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Post by Zenopus on Jul 23, 2020 15:52:40 GMT -6
The B/X and BECMI Basic rulebooks are worth their weight in GP just for the sample dungeons, Moldvay's Haunted Keep & Mentzer's Mistamere Castle. Each is unfinished, but that's a positive feature: make your own ending. Even if you don't ever run them, they are good to know as common reference points with other old school D&D-ers. Of course, I am sucker for the evocative Sample Dungeon... A Chronology of D&D Sample Dungeons |
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ThrorII
Level 4 Theurgist
Posts: 117 
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Post by ThrorII on Jul 23, 2020 15:59:26 GMT -6
Here's another vote for B/X. While similar to BECMI, it is closer to OD&D +Greyhawk than BECMI in some respects. B/X, BECMI, and RC are all VERY close, but all 3 have their own idiosyncrasies. Each builds and tweaks the rules and adds rules to the previous version, so that OD&D----->B/X ---->BECMI----->RC.
A simple example of this is retreating from combat. I don't recall seeing such rules in OD&D (chainmail has rules for retreating and route, and like many things, EGG probably expected you to incorporated it to OD&D as needed). B/X added a 'Fighting Withdrawal' to Chainmail's 'Retreat', of up to 1/2 your movement rate, allowing for an 'uncontrolled flee' or 'controlled backing away' - with language that was ambiguous if the fighting withdrawal character could counter-attack if the opponent closed distance. BECMI copied and pasted the rules. The RC then added specific rules to allow a counter attack on a 'fighting withdrawal' but changed the movement to 5' per melee round.
Each rule builds off the other, but each gets further and further from the original idea.
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Post by DungeonDevil on Jul 23, 2020 20:42:56 GMT -6
My intro to any D&D was Moldvay Basic, so, for me, obviously, it would be a big nostalgia thing to include B/X, but for other people? It's a great, streamlined, appealing version of the game and it's a great intro for kids, so why not? Also, don't forget Chainmail: the awesome Singularity before the Big Bang! |
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Post by waysoftheearth on Jul 23, 2020 23:41:26 GMT -6
Vile Traveller, how important are other rulings in S&S? I'm not likely to rule Sleep as an area-of-affect spell. But that was a clarifying example of what I would have in store. IMHO S&S contains some quite useful information, not least of which being the way in some monster and man-types are classed together. It also has--off the top of my head--information on figure basing, space required for weapons, a (practical) approach to melee rounds per turn, missile range and ROF, and a bunch of other nuances I'm sure. |
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Post by Vile Traveller on Jul 24, 2020 4:20:13 GMT -6
What waysoftheearth said - S&S fills in a lot of little holes in the LBBs. Admittedly, many of those holes you might never have noticed, of house-ruled already, in which case S&S would just be using Gary's house rule instead of your own.  I really like the clarification for Sleep, mind. It turns it into an actual 1st level spell instead of an auto-TPK.  |
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Post by tetramorph on Jul 24, 2020 12:12:19 GMT -6
DungeonDevil, I've got the PDF of Chainmail, printed out my own back up copy (legal!) and studied it many times. Don't have an original book. Too expensive! waysoftheearth, is it important enough that I should have S&S on paper? Do you think if I study the PDF I will be able to incorporate it into my rulings and campaign?
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Post by Falconer on Jul 24, 2020 13:42:25 GMT -6
Would you suggest I search out actual hardcopies of most of these? Or just find the PDFs. I have the PDF of a lot of these things or things like these. So, again, for clarification for all, I should have said -- I'm trying to round out my PAPER library. Things I can see on my shelf to remind me of what I am supposed to be thinking of/using. That’s a bit of a blind spot, to me. I hate having to bust out the laptop during a game session. I imagine the one or two times I looked something up in Oriental Adventures (a player requested to use a katana, or whatever), it would have been fine just to pull up the PDF. Everything else on my list is either something I have actually used in play and/or think is a really cool artifact. So, that said, the only JG thing I have in paper is the Ready Ref Sheets. I think I have most of the rest on PDF. But I am Gen-X so I actually experience print media differently and more directly than PDFs on a screen. So would you recommend I hunt those JG items down? I am particularly considering the FFC. I have found it unreadable as a PDF. Perhaps a hard copy in my hands would bring it out for me more fully? Definitely. I cannot seem to find the pre-AD&D M&T Assortments. Bummer. They’re out there. Set an eBay alert. You have to wait for a non-BIN auction. You might also find them buried in a lot. Good luck! These are great!! What is the Rogues Gallery? What will I gain from it in terms of rulings/campaign creation? It’s an encounter generators. And has some cool Greyhawk flavored character writeups (Erac’s Cousin, Robilar, etc.). It’s not a major work, but, it’s cool. I've got to say I'm not super interested in post-Gygax stuff. Again, anything to tempt me to such madness? I hear ya. Well, there are a dozen reasons your PCs might end up in the planes (including spells the PCs themselves may cast), and, if that happens, it’s nice to be able to pull out the MotP and at least have a clue of what it should be like, a ready-made vignette. It’s not super-original, but, it’s also not incongruous with the Gygax stuff. If someone ends up reincarnated as a monster, The Complete Book of Humanoids can help with that. This is something I’ve used less and less, over time, but it was handy as a rookie DM. Arms & Equipment Guide is also handy to find pictures of weapons and armor. If you want a more quick-and-dirty old-school version, you can pull out the central sheet from Dungeon Masters Adventure Log. |
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Post by linebeck on Jul 24, 2020 17:24:11 GMT -6
That TSR era AD&D is super expensive right now.
If you are okay with post-gygax stuff, I recommend:
D&D Creature catalogue - the British one (AC 9 - 9173)
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Post by Zenopus on Jul 24, 2020 18:18:32 GMT -6
The B/X and BECMI Basic rulebooks are worth their weight in GP just for the sample dungeons, Moldvay's Haunted Keep & Mentzer's Mistamere Castle. Each is unfinished, but that's a positive feature: make your own ending. Even if you don't ever run them, they are good to know as common reference points with other old school D&D-ers. Of course, I am sucker for the evocative Sample Dungeon... A Chronology of D&D Sample DungeonsMy post above inspired me to take a closer look at the Haunted Keep & how it built on and advanced J. Eric Holmes' idea of an introductory scenario for a beginner's rulebook: A Chronology of D&D Sample Dungeons: The Haunted Keep by Tom Moldvay (1981) |
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Post by waysoftheearth on Jul 24, 2020 19:20:42 GMT -6
waysoftheearth, is it important enough that I should have S&S on paper? Do you think if I study the PDF I will be able to incorporate it into my rulings and campaign? Depends how much you intend to use/refer to it. I've referred to mine thousands of times while researching DD, but you might have a different use case. I suspect you'll be fine to start with the PDF, then maybe print it out if you prefer hardcopy and end up using it frequently. One advantage--for those with tired eyes--is you can print it out larger. Another is that you can happily write notes all over it without defacing a precious original. See how you go |
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Post by asaki on Jul 24, 2020 20:40:22 GMT -6
Would you suggest I search out actual hardcopies of most of these? Or just find the PDFs. I have the PDF of a lot of these things or things like these. So, again, for clarification for all, I should have said -- I'm trying to round out my PAPER library. Things I can see on my shelf to remind me of what I am supposed to be thinking of/using. Well now, that's a horse of a different color, especially since most of those books are a lot cheaper in PDF. You can always just print out the little bits you like. But like I said, B/X were pretty cheap when I bought them, so it's up to you I guess. I am particularly considering the FFC. I have found it unreadable as a PDF. I agree, that font is really tiny, I have to hold my Nook HD+ horizontally and zoom in. One of these days I might take some OCR to it. I cannot seem to find the pre-AD&D M&T Assortments. Bummer. Good luck, they're a bit harder to find, a bit more expensive, and it's harder to tell them apart from later printings if you don't know what you're looking for. There's a PDF of the first booklet "floating around" (ehem), but not the other two. |
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Post by tetramorph on Jul 25, 2020 10:25:28 GMT -6
The B/X and BECMI Basic rulebooks are worth their weight in GP just for the sample dungeons, Moldvay's Haunted Keep & Mentzer's Mistamere Castle. Of course, I am sucker for the evocative Sample Dungeon... A Chronology of D&D Sample Dungeons@zenopus, this is awesome. You know what would be so cool? If someone made a setting based upon these. Wouldn't it be cool to take an area (maybe Arneson's 100sq. miles?) and use all these dungeons as the primary lairs? Then you drop that area on the OS board and all around the OS board you drop Palace of the Vampire Queen, Tomb of Horrors, White Plume Mountain, the Ghost Tower of Inverness, The Castle that Fell from the Sky, The Tomb of the Sea Kings, maybe even Tegel Manor. Am I missing any other Funhouse? (NO "ecology," please.) I don't want to run that campaign. I want to play in it. Someone, please run this on Zoom or Discord for me, right way, please. Fight on! |
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Post by tdenmark on Jul 26, 2020 3:12:11 GMT -6
Collecting is fun, and super addictive.
B/X and Holmes D&D are essentials.
Swords and Spells is not so important, neither is Gods, Demigods & Heroes.
The 144 page Deities & Demigods may be a tad overrated, but I really do like those Cthulhu and Melnibonean sections.
D&D Rules Cyclopedia is as great as its reputation. You don't need BECMI if you have it (except maybe Immortals)
There was a time when I was working in the tech industry making too much money and spent way too much gathering an old school D&D collection, and related stuff.
The jewel in my collection is Warriors of Mars, I thought it was too expensive when I bought it but it's going for crazy prices now. I'm an avid fan of Barsoom and have tons of related memorabilia, like out of print games and the classic hardcovers with the Frazetta covers and interiors.
Anyways, it is a super fun hobby and a little too addictive, just don't let it break your bank.
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Parzival
Level 6 Magician
Is a little Stir Crazy this year...
Posts: 401
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Post by Parzival on Jul 31, 2020 15:22:36 GMT -6
A simple example of this is retreating from combat. I don't recall seeing such rules in OD&D (chainmail has rules for retreating and route, and like many things, EGG probably expected you to incorporated it to OD&D as needed). B/X added a 'Fighting Withdrawal' to Chainmail's 'Retreat', of up to 1/2 your movement rate, allowing for an 'uncontrolled flee' or 'controlled backing away' - with language that was ambiguous if the fighting withdrawal character could counter-attack if the opponent closed distance. BECMI copied and pasted the rules. The RC then added specific rules to allow a counter attack on a 'fighting withdrawal' but changed the movement to 5' per melee round. Each rule builds off the other, but each gets further and further from the original idea. Not entirely accurate. Moldvay says nothing about a Fighting Withdrawal specifically allowing an attack, but then explicitly states that the Retreat, as a separate movement option, does not allow an attack, implying that Fighting Withdrawal does— and then Moldvay provides an example which fails to clear the matter up as the “withdrawing” character in the example is unable to hit his opponent (a gargoyle) because the withdrawing character has no magical weapons— so does he not attack because you can’t attack when withdrawing, or does he not attack because it’s a waste of effort? (Really poorly chosen example.) Mentzer Basic doesn’t cut and paste Moldvay (though it’s close) but adds a specific statement saying that a Fighting Withdrawal still allows the combatant to make an attack. However, it doesn’t state when this attack occurs, or how it is carried out. The RC then provides rules as to when, how, and whether the Fighting Withdrawal attack happens, which is after withdrawing, but only if pursued, in which case it happens before the pursuing opponent’s attack. Otherwise the movement change is the only other significant discrepancy in the FW and R rules. Perhaps the bigger change in the RC combat rules is the dropping of the “Declare Intentions” rule. This is not in Moldvay (though somewhat implied), yet is specifically stated in Mentzer Basic, but only in the DM’s Rulebook and not in the Player’s Manual. The RC doesn’t include it, yet still maintains the rule about spells being potentially lost if the caster is struck in combat before the spell is finished...which is a near impossibility in the RC combat system, as a spell isn’t declared until cast, and that only happens on the caster’s Magic phase, during which only the caster is taking any action. At most with Moldvay and RC you could add a house rule that a spell can’t be cast in the same round in which a caster is struck by his opponent (which only happens if the caster has lost initiative), but that’s not in the text either. (I suspect some rule detail got dropped between OD&D and Moldvay that nobody caught, and Allston didn’t catch it either when compiling the RC...) The other big change in the RC is the inclusion of General Skills, which are introduced in the Known Worlds Gazetteers, but otherwise (IIRC) are not a part of the BECMI sets. And of course the inclusion of some of the details of the Known World (including the colored hex maps), which are derived from the various Gazetteers (with some minor differences), but only lightly touched on in the boxed sets. By the way, I’d take Reaper’s “errata” with a grain of salt, as some of what he calls “errors” are actually matters of the author’s opinions and preferences. That doesn’t mean the document isn’t worthwhile, just that it should be treated as “suggestions” rather than rules (or even guidelines). |
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