What is Platemail?

[dicebro]

Also, can a fighter or cleric reduce platemail to Chainmail by taking off the “plate”?  How quickly could this be done?

[Finarvyn]

Plate mail would be the stuff you see knights wearing in most King Arthur style pictures. You can find pictures of the stuff here. Solid metal chestplate, metal around the biceps and forearms, metal around the groin and thigh and shins. Possibly chain around the joints, but most pictures I've seen show metal around the joints instead. Probably a full helmet with visor to cover the head.

I would say that plate mail and chainmail are two totally different things, and that one cannot just remove the plates to create chainmail. (Same would be true for chainmail versus leather armor; I assume that some sort of leather padding exists under the chain but you can't just take the chain off to make leather.) Honestly, it's been a while since I read about this stuff and my memory may be faulty.

As to time to get into or out of armor, many knights had squires help them with their armor. I would assume that it takes several minutes to get into or out of plate mail.

[tdenmark]

May 31, 2020 5:05:24 GMT -6 dicebro said:

Also, can a fighter or cleric reduce platemail to Chainmail by taking off the “plate”?  How quickly could this be done?

I illustrated a children's book on knights and armor once and had to do quite a bit of research.

Armor, with the aid of a squire, was surprisingly fast to put on and had a remarkable range of movement. An armored knight isn't as encumbered by armor as you'd think, it is incredibly well crafted and designed for mobility.

There are places under Platemail where you could have chainmail underneath, but there is a range. We are talking over a thousand years of development from chainmail to full plate (it goes back to 500 BC!). In the era of full plate a knight didn't necessarily have chainmail underneath.

A fighter in half-plate would likely be wearing full chainmail under it. In that case they could shed the plates in mere moments.

[Elphilm]

In AD&D, plate mail is definitely not a full suit of plate armor, but chain mail with a breastplate on top, as seen in the middle of this illustration:


Whether that also applies to "plate mail" in OD&D is anyone's guess. The iconic suit of armor discussed in the Wikipedia link above is a 16th century development primarily used for jousting. AD&D's chain mail + breastplate interpretation is slightly more functional in an adventuring context.

[tetramorph]

tdenmark and Elphilm, that really helps.

dicebro, IMC, I have plate as a cuirass that covers mainly chest but some back. There may be shoulder plates, bracers and whatever shin guards are called, as well. But when they find magic armor, it is the above, a cuirass.

The cuirass goes over a chainmail shirt.

The chainmail shirt goes over "leather armor," which becomes the gamben when it is under chainmail.

That way they have to buy leather to wear chain, and chain to wear plate.

So armor is a bit more expensive and it means most level ones do not have AC2.

Fight on!

[SebastianDM]

May 31, 2020 11:22:08 GMT -6 tetramorph said:

The cuirass goes over a chainmail shirt.
The chainmail shirt goes over "leather armor," which becomes the gamben when it is under chainmail.
That way they have to buy leather to wear chain, and chain to wear plate.

That is an interesting take. Could your players then benefit from magically enchanted leather armor and chain armor at the same time?

[tetramorph]

May 31, 2020 12:02:20 GMT -6 SebastianDM said:

May 31, 2020 11:22:08 GMT -6 tetramorph said:

The cuirass goes over a chainmail shirt.
The chainmail shirt goes over "leather armor," which becomes the gamben when it is under chainmail.
That way they have to buy leather to wear chain, and chain to wear plate.

That is an interesting take. Could your players then benefit from magically enchanted leather armor and chain armor at the same time?

I suppose it could.

But, following M&T, there is only armor and shields that are magical.

That said, I do sometimes put some magic chain for a cleric to find. The party usually gives it to the clerics because I do not allow plate for clerics.

I’ve never done magic leather, but, hey, this is D&D, so anything is possible.

[SebastianDM]

May 31, 2020 12:16:00 GMT -6 tetramorph said:

... there is only armor and shields that are magical.

So you would read magic armor as plate armor only in the LBB? I just assumed it could refer to leather, chain or plate. Maybe because that is the case for newer editions. I realize that I quite often involuntarily read the older rulesets through the lens of the other rule sets I grew up using.

Looking through the LBB now and I see the different kinds of armor are worded differently but I cannot figure out if there is any pattern to it.

Leather is referred to as: "Leather" and "Leather Armor",

Chain is referred to as: "Chain Mail", "Chain-type", "Chain-type Mail" and "Chain-Type Armor" and

Plate is referred to as: "Plate", "Plate Mail" and "Plate Armor"

[SebastianDM]

And that house rule about limiting Clerics to chain is something I really need to do as well. I have just had a cleric player in my campaign for the first time. He is level 3 now and man that class seems "gifted"..

[tetramorph]

Yes, that is how I read it.

That is probably due to laziness on my part.

I randomly roll up “armor” and what I see in my mind is a breastplate or cuirass. Sadly I don’t really think beyond that.

I would call chain a chain mail shirt. And leather is not “armor” to me. Although I know, historically that there was boiled leather. Leather to me is a leather gamben in my mind.

Perhaps I am thinking alchemically as well. You forge magic items made of metals. But you don’t forge chain mail or leather. I know this is silly, and I myself could imagine ways, but, on first blush, my mind asks, how does the magic get in?

So, yeah, that is how I rule it.

[Elphilm]

May 31, 2020 11:22:08 GMT -6 tetramorph said:

The chainmail shirt goes over "leather armor," which becomes the gamben when it is under chainmail.

That way they have to buy leather to wear chain, and chain to wear plate.

So armor is a bit more expensive and it means most level ones do not have AC2.

The layering rules are a clever way to make the original armor prices a little more reflective of historical realities without actually adjusting the values printed in the book. I'd be inclined to also add helmet costs to the total prices. The true cost of leather armor, helmet included, would be 25, mail would cost 55, and plate & mail would cost 105. Starting characters who rolled above average starting wealth could still begin play with the best armor, but mail would be the most common protection for low-level fighters and clerics.

[SebastianDM]

May 31, 2020 13:02:07 GMT -6 tetramorph said:

Yes, that is how I read it.

That is probably due to laziness on my part.

I randomly roll up “armor” and what I see in my mind is a breastplate or cuirass. Sadly I don’t really think beyond that.

I would call chain a chain mail shirt. And leather is not “armor” to me. Although I know, historically that there was boiled leather. Leather to me is a leather gamben in my mind.

Perhaps I am thinking alchemically as well. You forge magic items made of metals. But you don’t forge chain mail or leather. I know this is silly, and I myself could imagine ways, but, on first blush, my mind asks, how does the magic get in?

So, yeah, that is how I rule it.

I see. Thanks for the explanation. I can certainly follow your thoughts and I do not see anything in the LBB that explicitly refute that it could be that way it was intended.

I was actually very interested in your thoughts on the subject since I recently felt there was something I did not understand correctly about the table "Magic Armor Effects on Armor Class Guide" in the Greyhawk supplement. Looking that table over now I actually see that it can be seen as a major indicator of only plate armor being able to be enchanted. For all the listings of +X magic armor, the AC seems to align with that of plate armor.

It also aligns nicely with the rules of Empire of the Petal Throne where only iron armor may be enchanted. Also, in the AD&D DMG light and non-metal armor are limited in terms magic. Plate mail can have a +5 while chain and leather are only able to get a maximum of +3 and +1 respectively.

[dicebro]

I’m going to need to do more research.

[Zenopus]

See my post Gygaxian Armor; it includes the image above (literally, it's where it is hosted), but also the corresponding descriptions from the AD&D 1E DMG and my adaptations for OD&D.

[tdenmark]

May 31, 2020 16:14:52 GMT -6 Zenopus said:

See my post Gygaxian Armor; it includes the image above (literally, it's where it is hosted), but also the corresponding descriptions from the AD&D 1E DMG and my adaptations for OD&D.

That is a great post. I didn't remember that image being in the Dungeon Master's Adventure Log. Was it not in some printings? That would have really helped back in the day!

[delta]

For dressing & undressing times, I really like this video, in which Ian LaSpina tests getting in his "harness" which looks to me a lot like Gygaxian "plate mail":

youtu.be/k24y_ZmxRHg

With one assistant briefly in the picture his dressing time is 9:25, and undressing time 3:27. So for my game I round it to 10 minutes on, 3 minute off with help. Note that without the breastplate he does seem to be dressed in a functional chain shirt.

[Vile Traveller]

Game armour and real armour don't overlap that much! In defence of Gygax most historians also drew a lot of wrong or at least questionable conclusions from medieval art as to the nature of the armour depicted. Going by the kind of armour seen in D&D art doesn't help, either. To keep things simple and non-contentious in my games I go with leather, mail, and plate (which is really just code for light, medium, and heavy armour).

[tdenmark]

May 31, 2020 22:58:12 GMT -6 Vile Traveller said:

Game armour and real armour don't overlap that much! In defence of Gygax most historians also drew a lot of wrong or at least questionable conclusions...

This is so true! When I illustrated Knights and Castles I had to do a ton of research, the editors of the book were meticulous, but what you discover is how contradictory and non-standard all the information is. There are hundreds of different interpretations.

So I believe from a game mechanic perspective you have to go with what makes for the best gaming experience and is reasonably plausible.

[Punkrabbitt]

And, of course, lorica segmentata...

[dicebro]

light, medium and heavy? With magic armor always as heavy but with light movement rate?

[Vile Traveller]

No I tend to randomise magic armour (swords, as well - I once rolled a Flaming Shortsword, IIRC).

[robertsconley]

Here is a good illustration of the evolution of armor. The basic gist is that the Norman knight on the left is what D&D considers to be chainmail. The armor between 1330 and 1400 is consider plate mail. It first starts with formed pieces of plates being affixed to vulnerable parts via leather ties as shown in the 1330 illustration. Then developed towards articulated assemblies for the arms and legs. Then a breastplate over the chests as shown by the 1400 illustration. Then it all finally tied together as an articulated suit of armor in the 1450 picture. In AD&D Unearthed Arcana the 1450 armor is considered full plate. 

From personal experience in reenactments and LARPS it is considerably easier as an adventurer to deal with the 1330 to 1400 armor than it is with the 1450. Easier as in what I got to do on a daily basis to put it on, off and storing. 

[Deleted]

My personal vernacular for the 1450 variation shown would be "full plate" and what I call plate mail is the slightly earlier versions but your mileage may vary. Apparently these labels and distinctions are a sticking point in HEMA.