City of wights

[linebeck]

Here is an interesting anomaly I noticed. By the book, cities are more likely to be lairs for wights than any other type of monster, double that of bandits (which is otherwise the number one most likely city encounter).

I’m assuming that if a monster doesn’t have a lair in the city it is just passing through.

There is an equal chance of encountering undead or men in the city. There are 12 entries for men and 8 entries for undead. Bandits show up three times on the list for men.

So here’s my math (not a mathematician so let me know if I did it wrong):

Wights 1/2 x 1/8 = (6.25% (chance of encounter) x (60% in lair) = 3.75% chance of wight lair in city.

Bandits 1/2 x 3/12 = (12% chance of encounter) x (15% in lair) = 1.8% chance of bandit lair in city.

Although the percentage chance numbers are low, they are still statistically significant.

Cities are more likely than not lairs for wights than any other type of monster.

This has some interesting implications for the assumed world. Per Chainmail wights do not go out in the day (assumed based on the fact that they have a minus one to hit in daylight). Encounters are also only rolled at the end of the day (at dusk?).

Compare to our real world situation with Covid-19. Your risk of dying from Covid-19 is much lower than dying if you encountered a wight. Yet we have taken drastic measures to avoid that possibility.

You could tease from these numbers that city inhabitants would effectively quarantine themselves during nighttime hours (assuming rational behavior) given that a normal man would automatically die via level drain if he encountered a wight (garlic and crosses won’t help and wights are immune to non-magical attacks). Because wights are harmed by silver tipped arrows, everyone would carry a light crossbow & silver tipped arrows with them if they went out at night.

[cometaryorbit]

I think there kind of has to be an "adventurers attract trouble" factor applying to the encounter tables.

Also,in a lot of places and times before modern sanitation (and later vaccines and antibiotics) cities were often net population sinks - more people died than were born, because of the prevalence of disease. Maybe in the D&D world undead largely replace that...

[Deleted]

I interpret the OD&D default world as a haunted world that has issues with the dead rising from crypts and mausoleums, but for some reason (religious? cultural? superstitious?) the practice of cremation hasn't really caught on, so the citizenry lock their doors at night because horrific things roam the streets. I can imagine this makes high level Clerics of Law an in-demand commodity. (And similarly makes Evil High Priests and Necromancers of unknown alignment somewhat feared and quietly detested behind their backs and out of earshot.)

[linebeck]

May 22, 2020 16:42:52 GMT -6 @ampleframework said:

I interpret the OD&D default world as a haunted world that has issues with the dead rising from crypts and mausoleums, but for some reason (religious? cultural? superstitious?) the practice of cremation hasn't really caught on, so the citizenry lock their doors at night because horrific things roam the streets. I can imagine this makes high level Clerics of Law an in-demand commodity. (And similarly makes Evil High Priests and Necromancers of unknown alignment somewhat feared and quietly detested behind their backs and out of earshot.)

I like where you’re going. One good reason for not disposing of a corpse in the default setting is aspirational. In a world where a seventh level Cleric can raise the dead, It would be rational to keep a corpse for at a minimum four days before Immolation. Note that four days is the default as 15th level Cleric can raise a corpse that has been dead 24 days. Given that reality, would not a peasant rationally believe that they shouldn’t cremate grandma just yet on the off chance that they encounter a random patriarch who is able to resurrect her (even if for an exorbitant fee)?

Unlike the real world, the chance of resurrecting a loved one is pretty good in the default setting. I know that if one of my loved ones died and I believed that there is a chance of bringing them back, no matter how slight, I would certainly not want to cut off the chance of that happening by cremating them.

[asaki]

May 22, 2020 16:42:52 GMT -6 @ampleframework said:

I interpret the OD&D default world as a haunted world that has issues with the dead rising from crypts and mausoleums, but for some reason (religious? cultural? superstitious?) the practice of cremation hasn't really caught on, so the citizenry lock their doors at night because horrific things roam the streets.

This got brought up when I was running the Ravenloft adventure Night of the Walking Dead. All of the dead were coming back as zombies, and one of the players yelled at the priest and asked why they weren't being cremated.

I didn't really have a good answer =)

[gemini476]

Another option, since the tables are presumably designed for adventuring on the Outdoor Survival map, is that the "cities" on the map are more akin to ruins. Outlaws and the undead populate them, after all, as well as a handful of adventurers.

Note also what the encounter numbers look like. Bandits, Brigands (i.e. bandits with worse reputation) and Berserkers (bandits with better reputation)) make up 6/12 entries on the Men table, fully half. These hang out in groups of 30-300.
The other half is various name-level characters and their 2d6 flunkies.

For Undead, the amounts vary from 3d10 at the high end (skeletons) to 1d6 at the low (Vampires), any of them being equally likely to show up. While Wights are three times as likely to have a lair as Bandits are, there's ten times as many bandits (and more human-types, too).


Something else you could do is to look at the original pre-errata tables, where the encounter chance in cities was (mistakenly?) "---", null. If you go with this version, perhaps it's less a case of the cities crawling with brigands and vampires and more that the table is used when a player is Looking For Trouble.


Also, of course, note that Wandering Monsters occur "at the end of each day (turn)" so perhaps it's not that strange to have the worst parts of society pop up as the sun goes down.

[linebeck]

May 27, 2020 14:06:36 GMT -6 gemini476 said:

Another option, since the tables are presumably designed for adventuring on the Outdoor Survival map, is that the "cities" on the map are more akin to ruins. Outlaws and the undead populate them, after all, as well as a handful of adventurers.

Note also what the encounter numbers look like. Bandits, Brigands (i.e. bandits with worse reputation) and Berserkers (bandits with better reputation)) make up 6/12 entries on the Men table, fully half. These hang out in groups of 30-300.
The other half is various name-level characters and their 2d6 flunkies.

For Undead, the amounts vary from 3d10 at the high end (skeletons) to 1d6 at the low (Vampires), any of them being equally likely to show up. While Wights are three times as likely to have a lair as Bandits are, there's ten times as many bandits (and more human-types, too).


Something else you could do is to look at the original pre-errata tables, where the encounter chance in cities was (mistakenly?) "---", null. If you go with this version, perhaps it's less a case of the cities crawling with brigands and vampires and more that the table is used when a player is Looking For Trouble.


Also, of course, note that Wandering Monsters occur "at the end of each day (turn)" so perhaps it's not that strange to have the worst parts of society pop up as the sun goes down.

It could be that the cities are like 1970's Beirut:  From wikipedia:  "During most of the war, Beirut was divided between the Muslim west part and the Christian east.  The downtown area, previously the home of much of the city's commercial and cultural activity, became a no man's land known as the Green Line. Many inhabitants fled to other countries. About 60,000 people died in the first two years of the war (1975–1976), and much of the city was devastated."  

In D&D terms, you would have Bandits on one side, brigands on the other, and undead in between with general devastation all around with many former inhabitants long since fled.

[gemini476]

I think it would more be Brigands vs. Berserkers with Bandits in the middle - Bandits are 50/50 Chaotic and Neutral, after all. If you assume that they take sides, the undead would presumably be hunkering up alongside the Brigands and Evil High Priests.

[asaki]

May 27, 2020 14:06:36 GMT -6 gemini476 said:

Also, of course, note that Wandering Monsters occur "at the end of each day (turn)" so perhaps it's not that strange to have the worst parts of society pop up as the sun goes down.

Darklands was like that...if you wanted to, you could go around the cities at night, looking for trouble. There was a good chance you'd get jumped by bandits in some dark alley.

[Deleted]

May 27, 2020 8:00:00 GMT -6 linebeck said:

May 22, 2020 16:42:52 GMT -6 @ampleframework said:

I interpret the OD&D default world as a haunted world that has issues with the dead rising from crypts and mausoleums, but for some reason (religious? cultural? superstitious?) the practice of cremation hasn't really caught on, so the citizenry lock their doors at night because horrific things roam the streets. I can imagine this makes high level Clerics of Law an in-demand commodity. (And similarly makes Evil High Priests and Necromancers of unknown alignment somewhat feared and quietly detested behind their backs and out of earshot.)

I like where you’re going. One good reason for not disposing of a corpse in the default setting is aspirational. In a world where a seventh level Cleric can raise the dead, It would be rational to keep a corpse for at a minimum four days before Immolation. Note that four days is the default as 15th level Cleric can raise a corpse that has been dead 24 days. Given that reality, would not a peasant rationally believe that they shouldn’t cremate grandma just yet on the off chance that they encounter a random patriarch who is able to resurrect her (even if for an exorbitant fee)?

Unlike the real world, the chance of resurrecting a loved one is pretty good in the default setting. I know that if one of my loved ones died and I believed that there is a chance of bringing them back, no matter how slight, I would certainly not want to cut off the chance of that happening by cremating them.

You bring up a great point. In fact, you can have random encounters with Clerics on the streets of the city. I assume that while some are local others might be like wandering Lama or Dervish types who go lay hands on people and lift curses and such in exchange for a roof over their head and their alms for the night. So, chances are on any given four-day period after dear old grandma kicks the bucket or turns over the wrong rock and finds a giant centipede, the famed Virgin of the Wilderlands might show up on her unicorn and resurrect her. Thus, in a setting like this, cremation hasn't taken off because it'd be a real shame if you burned your loved one or the guy who owes you money he buried in an undisclosed location a day too soon.

[Vile Traveller]

I treat Undead as a uniquely Human thing, which is why they are so prevalent in cities rather than the wilderness - and when they occur in the latter it's usually due to lost ruins or ancient battles. My cities all have catacombs and generational cities beneath them, which is where all the Undead come from. Hey, the Church mandates that you entomb your dead, what are you gonna do? The fact that the Undead and all that entombing also provide a neat monopolised income stream for the Church is entirely coincidental.

[Deleted]

May 28, 2020 19:36:00 GMT -6 Vile Traveller said:

I treat Undead as a uniquely Human thing,

Speaking of which, to go off on a slight tangent, their distribution also heavily encourages the interpretation that only Humans can be raised from the dead in any way. (Hobbits are still a grey area, their Humanity being a subject of some debate.)

[asaki]

May 29, 2020 4:11:11 GMT -6 @ampleframework said:

Speaking of which, to go off on a slight tangent, their distribution also heavily encourages the interpretation that only Humans can be raised from the dead in any way. (Hobbits are still a grey area, their Humanity being a subject of some debate.)

I know in AD&D, Gary makes it quite clear that Elves cannot be revived, because they have no souls

"When the cleric casts a raise dead spell, he or she can restore life to a dwarf, gnome, half-elf, halfling, or human."

(I don't remember where the rest is, it might've been in the DMG somewhere...or maybe OSRIC??)

(yep, it was OSRIC, nevermind)

"The eerie, keening incantation of this spell calls a soul back from the afterlife, literally bringing the dead back to life. Elves, as they do not have souls, cannot be brought back to life in this manner, but humans, half-elves, half-orcs, gnomes, dwarfs, and halfl ings can all be raised from the dead by means of this spell."


And I know 2nd Edition has rules for all kinds of monsters to be zombies and skeletons @_@

[gemini476]

I have to imagine that Elves (and half-orcs) not being able to be raised is a nod at Tolkien, what with them having their own special reincarnation-afterlife there. I think the Planar Handbook might have elaborated a bit on elvish souls as well, or maybe that's in Deities & Demigods? Despite Gygax' dislike of Lord of the Rings, it had quite a bit of influence on how AD&D's Elves worked.

Interestingly, back in OD&D Raise Dead "works with men, elves, and dwarves only" - is the removal of Hobbits intentional, or just a result of the being "optional" (note also their absence in Monsters & Treasure and the encounter tables)? I suspect the latter, and personally in play I'd amend it to be "All Men, Elves and Dwarves, and also whatever weird thing Jeff is playing this week" so people aren't directly punished for playing a Balrog or whatever.
Reincarnate seems to work on anyone, however, and Animate Dead doesn't mention any limits. (Presumably animated dead dragons are still just one hit dice, though.)

[asaki]

I think it also has something to do with the fact that Elves live for hundreds of years.

And then, even after those hundreds of years, they don't die, they just...go somewhere else!

May 30, 2020 14:01:10 GMT -6 gemini476 said:

Interestingly, back in OD&D Raise Dead "works with men, elves, and dwarves only" - is the removal of Hobbits intentional, or just a result of the being "optional" (note also their absence in Monsters & Treasure and the encounter tables)? I suspect the latter...

Yeah, I agree that it's probably just an oversight. There's very little about Hobbits at all in the LBBs, he probably didn't think they'd be that popular. Even Chainmail says "These little chaps have small place in the wargame, but you may want them for recreation of certain battles."

BTPBD is a lot less specific, BTW:

"Raise the Dead: The Cleric simply points his finger and the dead person is brought back to life. However, such a person will then need two weeks to rest and recover before he will be normal."

[Deleted]

May 31, 2020 13:43:03 GMT -6 asaki said:

I think it also has something to do with the fact that Elves live for hundreds of years.

And then, even after those hundreds of years, they don't die, they just...go somewhere else!

Ah, the Halls of Mandos(tm)! (Or insert your setting's rough proxy with serial numbers filed off.)

[Or just let 'em resurrect like Humans. I guess like most of these sticking points with OD&D it comes down to a combination of YMMV and "my campaign world, my rules.", eh?]

{Also I count Hobbits as Men, but Dwarves and Elves as not. "my campaign world, my rules."}

[delta]

May 30, 2020 11:32:49 GMT -6 asaki said:

May 29, 2020 4:11:11 GMT -6 @ampleframework said:

Speaking of which, to go off on a slight tangent, their distribution also heavily encourages the interpretation that only Humans can be raised from the dead in any way. (Hobbits are still a grey area, their Humanity being a subject of some debate.)

I know in AD&D, Gary makes it quite clear that Elves cannot be revived, because they have no souls

"When the cleric casts a raise dead spell, he or she can restore life to a dwarf, gnome, half-elf, halfling, or human."

(I don't remember where the rest is, it might've been in the DMG somewhere...or maybe OSRIC??)

There's extra detail in the AD&D Deities & Demigods book, p. 10:

AD&D assumes that the anima, that force which gives life and distinct existence to thinking beings, is one of two sorts: soul or spirit. Humans, dwarves, halflings, gnomes, and half-elves (those beings which can have a raise dead or resurrection spell cast upon them) all have souls; all other beings that worship deities have spirits. This latter group includes (but is not limited to) elves, orcs, half-orcs, and the other creatures specifically mentioned in the NONHUMANS' DEITIES section of this work.

[delta]

On the overall issue of undead being common in cities, I want to make a connection with the "Gods of Lankhmar", which in the AD&D Deities & Demigods book (p. 99) are described as "Ancient mummified skeletons sustaining themselves through the use of mighty magics... These gods appear only when their city is threatened with grave danger. When the problem is solved, they cast about the city wreaking havoc as a reminder that they are not to be called too often. They inhabit one large temple at the end of the Street of the Gods".

Which sounds pretty amazing. Leiber mentions the Gods of Lankhmar in the temple at the end of the street a few times; but I've never found an episode in which they do this "save the city then wreak havoc" gag. I wonder if that was an elaboration by Ward/Kuntz? (Bonus points for amazing art by Jaquays all through this section.)

[asaki]

May 31, 2020 21:57:37 GMT -6 delta said:

There's extra detail in the AD&D Deities & Demigods book, p. 10:

Ah. That's one book I don't own, so I haven't read too much of it.

[thegreyelf]

And I've now begun working on an epic Castles & Crusades city setting called "City of the Dead" based on the idea of Beirut in the 70s and an uncontrolled plague of vampires and wights, with werebears, werewolves, and wererats thrown in for good measure. The PCs get trapped wtihin as part of an ancient prophecy that keeps the city forgotten and all the inhabitants trapped within, but the prophecy is unclear as to whether they'll end the plague, or unleash the dead upon the world. Thanks for the inspiration!