Ambiguity in ATTACK MATRIX II.: MONSTERS ATTACKING?

[delta]

The Vol-1 monster attack matrix has ambiguous column headers. Note that hit dice 3 and 6 both appear in multiple adjacent columns:


(hosted on imgur)

Original link for image: www.superdan.net/download/OD&D-MonsterAttackMatrix.png

Is there any official resolution to this? I had the bright idea of looking at the Monster & Treasure Assortment attack level values for clarification, but unfortunately those aren't consistent either, and so fail to solve the issue. (E.g.: I considered maybe the second column was 6+1 or higher, but that doesn't consistently synch with the M&TA attack levels).

Mod note: Delta's image was no longer showing as proboards now requires all linked images to use "https" instead of just "http". So I grabbed the image and put it up on Imgur to get an https link ---Z

[captainjapan]

Holmes has (3+ to 4) and (4+ to 6+). That progression also jives with Greyhawk's "Guidelines for Awarding Experience Points for Monster Slaying" table

[Zenopus]

Beyond this Point Be Dragons has 10 columns for Monster HD, which are possibly but not necessarily how they appeared in the Guidon draft. I'll write them out vertically for comparison purposes:

up to 1
2
2-3
3-4
4
5
6
7
8
9+

The 1st printing of M&M has only 8 columns: 2 is changed to 1+1; 4, 5 and 6 are condensed to 4-6; 7 and 8 are condensed to 7-8; 9+ is changed to 9-10; and a new higher category is created:



As increment suggested for the Men Attacking table, this was possibly done because there was only room for this many columns in the published booklet. Note that 6 is not repeated in these columns, but 3 and 4 are:

Up to 1
1+1
2-3
3-4
4-6
7-8
9-10
11 & +

A later hardcopy of M&M (not sure which print; post-Tolkien references removed) that I own has the 7-8 changed to 6-8, and "11 & +" changed to "11 & 1". So now 6 is repeated along with 3 and 4:

Dice Up to 1
1+1
2-3
3-4
4-6
6-8
9-10
11 & 1

[This is the same as the image shown in Delta's post above]

I'm not sure if there are any other variants in other printings of M&M.

Holmes flipped the table, putting Monster HD in the left column and AC going across the top, but it's the same table, with 8 categories of Monster HD, 9 armor classes, and identical target numbers throughout.

The Holmes Manuscript, the 1st edition (1st to 3rd printings), the 2nd edition, and early printings of the 3rd edition of the published Holmes rulebook all have the following:

up to 1+1
1+1 to 2
2 to 3
3+ to 4
4+ to 6+
7 to 8+
9 to 10+
11 up

So Holmes complicated things by adding a repeating 1+1, retaining the repeating 2, but removing the repeating 3 and 4 by making them 3 and 3+ and 4 and 4+. Due to the fact that 6 does not repeat, he was probably using an earlier printing of M&M.

TSR let these numbers stand for several years, but at late date in the life cycle of Holmes, someone adjusted the numbers so there were no longer are repeats.

Later printings of the 3rd edition of the Holmes rulebook have:
up to 1+1
1+2 to 2
2+ to 3
3+ to 4
4+ to 6+
7 to 8+
9 to 10+
11 up

Finally, there was one more adjustment to the first two entries.

The Reference Sheet in the 1st printing of Keep on the Borderlands has:

up to 1
1+1 to 2
2+ to 3
3+ to 4
4+ to 6+
7 to 8+
9 to 10+
11 up

It's interesting that they were still trying to clarify this problem as of late 1979/early 1980 when B2 was being worked on.

Moldvay Basic then adjusted it as follows:

up to 1
1+ to 2
2+ to 3
3+ to 4
4+ to 5
5+ to 6
6+ to 7
7+ to 9
9+ to 11
11+ to 13
13+ to 15
15+ to 17
17+ or more

The Expert Set changes the 17+ line and adds two more lines:

17+ to 19
19+ to 21
21 + or more

[retrorob]

delta

like Zenopus has pointed out, 4-6 and 7-8 changed in later prints into 4-6 and 6-8 respectively, so 6+ falls into 6-8 category. I follow an example from M&M, where Troll (HD 6+3) is 7th level monster.

Also: Wight (HD 3) hits AC 2 on 15, while Hippogriff (HD 3+1) needs 13, Ogre is better than Wraith and so on.

[delta]

So here's a thing I just noticed (or recalled). The combat tables in the 1976 Swords & Spells are modified in a few ways that seem to clarify this. Among the edits:

(1) For men-types, you get an extra "Level 0" row that's 5% less capable than 1st level. Pretty sure this book is the first that uses the term "Level 0". In fact the two-page spread of weapon-based combat in Appendix A uses Level 0 as the basis, with modifiers applied for any higher levels. (See S&S p. 24-25, 27, 31-32). However, the saving throw table fails to have an entry for level 0 (p. 16), being an identical copy of the Vol-1 table.

(2) Meanwhile, the men-type table are slightly expanded at the upper level. While Vol-1 tops out with "16&+", S&S has a "16-18" entry, followed by a terminal "19&+", which is 5% better than the "16-18" row (p. 27).

(3) The monster attacks tables are close to identical to Vol-1 up through about 10 hit dice. In the formerly ambiguous rows you see "3+-4", "4+-6", "6+-8", "8+-10". Then similar to the men it expands the top of the table with entries for "10+-12", "12+-14", "14+& up". The chances are all 5% reduced from the Vol-1 table (true for both basic tables p. 25-26 and Appendix A), because the first line is now synched with the reduced "Level 0" chances (in fact, monster table p. 25 shows hit dice "0" in the first row, while higher damage table p. 26 in that spot says "to 1"); increments thereafter match up, except except the 10% jump is at "3-4" in Vol-1, here shown at 4+-6".

So for me I'm thinking the cleanest resolution might be to interpret the monster hit die categories as shown in S&S (if I used those tables).


(hosted on imgur)

Original link for image: www.superdan.net/download/S&S-CombatChances.png

I might point out that looking at the 1977 Monster & Treasure Assortment, the attack level entries suggest the presence of the new level-0 class, but not consistently. For example, most Bandits, Centipedes, and Giants Rats are target 11 (50%) to hit AC 9 (as S&S level-0), but Kobolds, Goblins, Orcs, and Skeletons are still at target 10 (55%) to hit AC 9.

Mod note: see note on first post in thread ---Z

[linebeck]

Mod note: start of second thread now merged into this one.

Original Subject: 20-Sided Die Score to Hit by Monster’s Dice #

I feel dumb for not noticing it before but Attack Matrix II makes no sense when you try to read it.



Does "up to 1" include a 1 HD monster? (up to and including one vs. less than one)



Does 1+1 include 2 HD monsters?



Does "2-3" mean that it includes 2 HD monsters and up to but not including 3HD?



If not, does a 3 HD monster attack on the "2-3 HD" column or the "3-4 HD" column?


What column does an 8+1 HD monster use?


How do you all make sense of it?

[Zenopus]

We just happened to discuss this earlier this year, see here. Seems like a candidate for a sticky thread!

[Threads are now merged; previously linked thread is now above]

[linebeck]

Aug 4, 2020 22:55:07 GMT -6 Zenopus said:

We just happened to discuss this earlier this year, see here. Seems like a candidate for a sticky thread!

odd74.proboards.com/thread/13939/ambiguity-monster-attack-matrices

Thanks, I tried to search but couldn’t find it. I’ll read that thread.

[retrorob]

linebeck

"up to 1" include 1 HD monsters (orcs)
"1+1" doesn't include 2 HD, it's what it is (hobgoblins)
"2-3" include 2 and 3 (gnolls, ghouls, wights)
"3-4" means 3+ up to 4

[linebeck]

Aug 5, 2020 1:22:10 GMT -6 retrorob said:

linebeck

"up to 1" include 1 HD monsters (orcs)
"1+1" doesn't include 2 HD, it's what it is (hobgoblins)
"2-3" include 2 and 3 (gnolls, ghouls, wights)
"3-4" means 3+ up to 4

In my post-hobbit version of M&M the matrix reads:

Up to 1
1+1
2-3
3-4
4-6
6-8
9-10
11&+

By your interpretation what it meant to say was (red shows where I made changes):

Up to 1
1+1
2-3
3+-4
4+-6
6+-8+
9-10+
11&+

That works for me.  

The other way of reading it would be:

Up to 1
1+1-2
2+-3
3+-4
4+-6
6+-8+
9-10+ 
11&+

[retrorob]

Well, monsters are just a bit stronger than men.

Original (1st print) table:

up to 1
1+1
2-3
3-4
4-6
7-8
9-10
11&+

Check also Empire of the Petal Throne:

1 or less
1+1
2-3
4-5
6-7
8-9
10-11
12 and up

[Zenopus]

The two threads are now merged for easier reference.