Analyzing the Combat Example from The Strategic Review #2

[paleologos]

I was recently going through the Combat Example from The Strategic Review #2, and found it a bit challenging to follow in places. I tried breaking it down, in an attempt to understand it better:

10 ORCS surprise a lone Hero wandering lost in the dungeons, but the die check reveals they are 30' distant at the time of surprise, so they use their initiative to close to melee distance. Initiative is now checked. The Hero scores a 3, plus 1 for his high dexterity, so it is counted 4. The Orcs score 6, and even a minus 1 for their lack of dexterity (optional) still allows them first attack. As they outnumber their opponent so heavily it is likely that they will try to over-power him rather than kill, so each hit they score will be counted as attempts to grapple the Hero

I figured that a bonus to initiative might kick in with dexterity scores of 15 or greater, when fighters get their dodge/parry bonus to AC. The minus to initiative might be with scores of 3 to 6. (Constitution bonuses in Greyhawk are likewise at 15-18, with penalties at 3-6.)

- Assumed armor of the Hero: Chainmail & Shield -- AC 4.
- Score required to hit AC 4 -- 15 (by monsters with 1 hit die).
- Only 5 Orcs can attack, as they haven't had time to surround.

Assume the following dice scores for the Orcs attacks:
Orc #1 - 06; #2 - 10; #3 - 18; #4 - 20; #5 - 03.

So, why "only 5" Orcs? I think Gygax might have had this table in mind, from Greyhawk, pg 13:



In other words, no orcs are able to attack from behind (although, that implies that up to 8 assailants can attack a single character).

Two of the Orcs have grappled the Hero, and if his score with 4 dice is less than their score with 2 dice he has been pinned helplessly. If it is a tie they are struggling, with the Hero still on his feet, but he will be unable to defend himself with his weapon. If the Hero scores higher than the Orcs use the positive difference to throw off his attackers, i.e. the Hero scores 15 and the Orcs scored but 8, so the Hero has tossed both aside, stunning them for 7 turns between them.

This is such a simple, elegant way to resolve unarmed combat.

- Round 2: Initiative goes to the Hero.
- Score required to hit Orcs -- 11 (4th level fighter vs. AC 6).

Assume the following dice score by the Hero. Note that he is allowed one attack for each of his combat levels as the ratio of one Orc vs. the Hero is 1:4, so this is treated as normal (non-fantastic) melee, as is any combat where the score of one side is a base 1 hit die or less.

Hero: 19; 01; 16; 09. Two out of four blows struck. There are 8 orcs which can be possibly hit. An 8-sided die is rolled to determine which have been struck. Assume a 3 and an 8 are rolled. Orcs #3 and #8 are diced for to determine their hit points, and they have 3 and 4 points respectively. Orc #3 takes 6 damage points and is killed. Orc #8 takes damage point and is able to fight.

- All 7 surviving/non-stunned Orcs are now able to attack.

This part was fairly straightforward.

Continued attempts to over-power the Hero are assumed, and no less than 4 Orcs are able to attack the Hero from positions where his shield cannot be brought into play, so his AC is there considered 5, and those Orcs which attack from behind add +2 to their hit dice. In the case it is quite likely that the Orcs will capture the Hero.

This was the part I was having difficulty understanding, although if one refers to the table from Greyhawk, above, I'm assuming that 3 of the remaining 7 orcs are attacking the L. Flank, L. Front, and Front positions, and the other 4 are attacking the R. Front, R. Flank, and 2 Rear positions (the latter 2 adding +2 to their hit rolls, rather than their hit "dice", I gather).

Incidentally, that means that 2 of the orcs involved in the initial attack would also have been rolling to hit AC 5, rather than AC 4.

[countingwizard]

Forget Greyhawk is all I have to say. Greyhawk hadn't yet been published, and this FAQ was more to clarify rules about the LBBs. He used judgment to determine where those orcs were positioned in both cases. And where they were flanking the Hero or behind the hero, they received a +2 bonus to their attack.

The example is also still not a great combat example, because it doesn't tell you at what range melee attacks can be made, it doesn't tell you what order or sequence combat occurs in context with movement, missile attacks, or spells.

[paleologos]

Agreed, it's always puzzled me, although I think that Greyhawk was at least in the manuscript stage. Gygax says "Considerations such as weapon-type, damage by weapon-type, and damage by monster attack tables appear in the first booklet to be added to the D&D series -- SUPPLEMENT I, GREYHAWK, which should be available about the time this publication is, or shortly thereafter".

[waysoftheearth]

Yyyyeah. The FAQ is basically a hot mess. There's some useful guidance there, but it raises as many questions as it answers.

FWIW, here are some notes I made on the orc combat example a few years back:


Combat Example:
10 ORCS surprise a lone Hero wandering lost in the dungeons (1-3 players would attract 1-6 orcs on DL1, 2-12 orcs on DL2, 3-18 orcs of DL3, etc. 10 orcs would be the most probable number if the hero were on DL3), but the die check reveals they are 30' distant at the time of surprise (nothing is said about the hero dropping stuff due to surprise), so they use their initiative (presumably means they use their "free move segment") to close to melee distance. Iniative is now checked. The Hero scores a 3, plus 1 for his high dexterity, so it is counted 4. The Orcs score 6, and even a minus 1 for their lack of dexterity (optional) still allows them first attack (introduction of a previously unspecified initiative rule; possibly an adaption of CM's dicing for first move; Note that 13+ dexterity is considered "high", but a +1 adjustment on a d6 due to constitution occurs at 15+). As they outnumber their opponent so heavily it is likely that they will try to over-power him rather than kill (U&WA only specifies that monsters "will automatically attack" unless the enemy looks too powerful), so each hit they score will be counted as attempts to grapple the Hero:
- Assumed armor of the Hero: Chainmail & Shield -- AC 4.
- Score required to hit AC 4 -- 15 (by monsters with 1 hit die).
- Only 5 Orcs can attack, as they haven’t had time to surround (it's unclear how the number 5 is determined; possibly as simple as throwing a ten-sided die?).
Assume the following dice scores for the Orcs' attacks: Orc #1 - 06; #2 - 10; #3 - 18; #4 - 20; #5 - 03.

Two of the Orcs have grappled the Hero, and if his score with 4 dice is less than their score with 2 dice he has been pinned helplessly. If it is a tie they are struggling, with the Hero still on his feet, but he will be unable to defend himself with his weapon. If the Hero scores higher than the Orcs use the positive difference to throw off his attackers (introduction of a new grappling rule where the existing subdual rule might have served), i.e. the Hero scores 15 and the Orcs scored but 8, so the Hero has tossed both aside, stunning them for 7 turns between them (the orcs required successful attack rolls to add their individual HD to the grapple contest but the hero's 4 HD were automatically counted. NOTE the hero didn't get any attack roll during this melee round. NOTE "7 turns" possibly means "7 rounds". The Hero "has tossed both aside" implies that the two orcs who hit/grappled have been thrown back and stunned for 3 and 4 rounds).

- Round 2: Initiative goes to the Hero.
- Score required to hit Orcs -- 11 (4th level fighter vs. AC 6). (The hero is attacking as a 4th level fighter, which he would only do in fantastic combat. However, orcs are not fantastic opponents so this should be resolved as normal combat where the hero would attack as 4 men--each with THAC2 17. The FAQ has the hero "double dipping"; combining the benefits of normal and fantastic combat).
Assume the following dice score by the Hero. Note that he is allowed one attack for each of his combat levels (there is debate over the meaning of "combat levels", however; the gist is the hero has 4 HD and a FC of 4 men in normal combat) as the ratio of one Orc vs. the Hero is 1:4, (there is debate over the meaning of this 1:4 ratio. Personally, I think it's a reference to the orc:hero ratio of FCs in normal combat. However, employing multiple attacks in normal combat occurs wherever a fantastic type attacks normal types. No new explanation involving FC ratios was required to justify the use of normal combat) so this is treated as normal (non-fantastic) melee, as is any combat where the score of one side is a base 1 hit die or less. (Possibly the earliest? statement of the 1 HD line in the sand for normal types, which is also subject to debate. Notable that 1+1 HD elves and hobgoblins are explicitly listed as "man-like types" in the introductory passage of this very article. Also notable that cavemen are 2 HD and explicitly described in normal combat terms in M&T; gnolls are 2 HD and classified as normal troops in S&S; etc.).

Hero: 19; 01; 16; 09. Two out of four blows struck. There are 8 orcs which can be possibly hit (presumably because the hero cannot attack the two orcs who were thrown back). An 8-sided die is rolled to determine which have been struck (hits are allocated randomly). Assume a 3 and an 8 are rolled. Orcs #3 and #8 are diced for to determine their hit points, and they have 3 and 4 points respectively (hit points are diced on demand rather than in advance). Orc #3 takes 6 damage points and is killed. Orc #8 takes 1 damage point and is able to fight.

- All 7 surviving/non-stunned Orcs are now able to attack (of 10 orcs 1 has been slain, 2 are stunned, so 7 are able to attack). Continued attempts to over-power the Hero are assumed, and no less than 4 Orcs are able to attack the Hero from positions where his shield cannot be brought into play, so his AC is there considered 5, and those Orcs which attack from behind add +2 to their hit dice (positioning is considered in determining hit probability. NOTE "hit dice" presumably means "hit rolls" rather than HD). In the case it is quite likely that the Orcs will capture the Hero.

[paleologos]

Thanks for sharing your in-depth analysis - there are even more implications bearing on combat mechanics than I first thought.

In considering the combat grid from Greyhawk, I ended up posting about this on my blog.

I also continued the encounter, extrapolating from what I'd considered, in order to determine the fate of the hero - his chances were better than Gary was implying!

[flightcommander]

Was just re-reading this thread. When the hero hits the two orcs in the second round of combat, it's unclear to me how the damage is rolled and how the damage is allocated.

As DM I would have rolled for the orcs' hit points (say 3 and 4, per the example) and then had the player roll 1d6 for each successful hit (say 6 and 1, again per the example. Then I would have applied 6 points against the 3hp orc, killing him, and 1 point against the 4hp orc, wounding him.

That may be what is implied by the example, but if so it's not stated that way. (Par for the course I guess ...) There appear to be no rolls for damage.

In fact it looks like there is some relationship between the hit points rolled for the orcs (3+4 = 7 total) and the hits applied to them (6+1 = 7 total) but that seems just plain weird.

Any thoughts?

[waysoftheearth]

I think the damage rolls of 6 and 1 hp are simply implicit in the passage of play.

Possibly, EGG thought rolling d6 for damage was well enough understood that he didn't need to explain it explicitly? It's almost ironic considering the 1-6 damage rule didn't appear until... was it the 5th print of M&M?

[geoffrey]

Feb 5, 2020 3:50:14 GMT -6 waysoftheearth said:

Yyyyeah. The FAQ is basically a hot mess. There's some useful guidance there, but it raises as many questions as it answers.

I've long found it funny that A/D&D combat examples typically don't follow the combat rules of the game.

[geoffrey]

Feb 5, 2020 3:50:14 GMT -6 waysoftheearth said:

Orcs #3 and #8 are diced for to determine their hit points, and they have 3 and 4 points respectively (hit points are diced on demand rather than in advance).

I like that.

[flightcommander]

Mar 13, 2021 19:22:43 GMT -6 waysoftheearth said:

It's almost ironic considering the 1-6 damage rule didn't appear until... was it the 5th print of M&M?

Is that so? That might explain its elision here — it was just assumed. Thanks waysoftheearth.