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Post by thegreyelf on Dec 23, 2019 7:29:55 GMT -6
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Post by mgtremaine on Dec 23, 2019 8:22:56 GMT -6
 I see you got both... Nice. My Original also arrived, they sure crammed a lot of goodness in that box. -Mike |
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Post by thegreyelf on Dec 23, 2019 12:49:08 GMT -6
I see you got both... Nice. My Original also arrived, they sure crammed a lot of goodness in that box. -Mike Well I work for Troll Lord Games and I'm the guy who compiled the lion's share of the rules for these, so yeah, I got a copy of each  . This was a bit of a pet project of mine that I sort of browbeat Steve into letting me do, insisting that it'd be a big seller. |
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Post by bigjackbrass on Dec 23, 2019 13:30:32 GMT -6
OK, I've tried three different browsers, turned off my adblocker, loaded desktop and mobile versions of the site… and I still can't see any images, just a symbol showing that the image link is broken.
Could someone tell me what we're looking at here? Thanks.
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Post by Falconer on Dec 23, 2019 14:04:29 GMT -6
Yeah, I can't see anything either.
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Post by thegreyelf on Dec 23, 2019 14:44:53 GMT -6
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Post by bigjackbrass on Dec 23, 2019 14:59:26 GMT -6
Thanks, I can see them through the link but still nothing on the forum. Odd. Very nice! Is that from the Kickstarter last year? |
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Post by thegreyelf on Dec 23, 2019 15:11:38 GMT -6
Thanks, I can see them through the link but still nothing on the forum. Odd. Very nice! Is that from the Kickstarter last year? Yup! The white boxes should be available in retail early next year. We'd hoped to have them out for Christmas but the printer shorted us a ton of books. |
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Post by Greyharp on Dec 24, 2019 5:39:33 GMT -6
I can see them no problems using Firefox and an adblocker. Gotta love a box set. They look great Jason.
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Post by bigjackbrass on Dec 24, 2019 5:50:56 GMT -6
Now that you've edited the original post the pictures are appearing perfectly! No idea what the problem was.
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arkansan
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Posts: 231
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Post by arkansan on Dec 24, 2019 10:56:32 GMT -6
Neat! Would you mind telling me a bit about these? Is this the full rules, or an intro product?
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Post by thegreyelf on Jan 2, 2020 6:26:56 GMT -6
Neat! Would you mind telling me a bit about these? Is this the full rules, or an intro product? It's very much an OD&D style take on C&C. It has Humans, Elves, Dwarves, and Halflings, and features Fighter, Cleric, Thief, and WIzard classes. All go to level 10 and it has the full rules. The white box (which will be in stores) has five booklets Men & Magic, Monsters & Treasure, Eldritch Enchantments (all the spells & magic), and Adventures in the Wilderness and Underworld (rules of play), plus an adventure module and reference sheets, just like those in OD&D. It will retail for $49.99, which is far less costly than the full PHB, M&T, and CKG (which together would cost about $110). It's essentially an old-school take on the game which is ultimately portable and hits the right nostalgia button, at an affordable cost. The woodgrain (which was only available through the Kickstarter in a limited edition) included 2 extra books: Adventurer's Backpack, which had a new take on equipment and some additional classes; and Of Gods & Monsters of Aihrde, a booklet with our house setting pantheon. It also included dice, a golf pencil, and character sheets. We are discussing the feasibility of adding the character sheets and dice to the retail version of the white box, but that's still up in the air. |
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Post by bigjackbrass on Jan 2, 2020 11:06:00 GMT -6
We are discussing the feasibility of adding the character sheets and dice to the retail version of the white box, but that's still up in the air. I realise that relatively few shops in the UK carry C&C, but I should mention that putting dice in the box changes it from a book to a game in the eyes of the taxman here and would put the retail price up by 20%. |
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arkansan
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Posts: 231
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Post by arkansan on Jan 2, 2020 20:35:06 GMT -6
Neat! Would you mind telling me a bit about these? Is this the full rules, or an intro product? It's very much an OD&D style take on C&C. It has Humans, Elves, Dwarves, and Halflings, and features Fighter, Cleric, Thief, and WIzard classes. All go to level 10 and it has the full rules. The white box (which will be in stores) has five booklets Men & Magic, Monsters & Treasure, Eldritch Enchantments (all the spells & magic), and Adventures in the Wilderness and Underworld (rules of play), plus an adventure module and reference sheets, just like those in OD&D. It will retail for $49.99, which is far less costly than the full PHB, M&T, and CKG (which together would cost about $110). It's essentially an old-school take on the game which is ultimately portable and hits the right nostalgia button, at an affordable cost. The woodgrain (which was only available through the Kickstarter in a limited edition) included 2 extra books: Adventurer's Backpack, which had a new take on equipment and some additional classes; and Of Gods & Monsters of Aihrde, a booklet with our house setting pantheon. It also included dice, a golf pencil, and character sheets. We are discussing the feasibility of adding the character sheets and dice to the retail version of the white box, but that's still up in the air. Sounds right up my alley. |
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Post by countingwizard on Jan 16, 2020 8:51:58 GMT -6
What are the biggest difference between C&C and D&D (both in rules and substance)? I keep seeing material for this game, but I rarely buy anything published later than 1983.
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Post by mgtremaine on Jan 16, 2020 10:03:25 GMT -6
Basically it takes some of the 3rd Edition mechanics and returns the base to a more AD&D power-level and sensibility (although saves are harder then AD&D because opposing level factors in). SIEGE checks is what the d20 resolution is called and the system for calculation is standardized, you check against attributes instead of "categories" with the old save types Spell, Poly, Death being mapped to the correct attribute. Multiple Attacks are pretty much gone (Fighters get 1 extra at 10th level, Monks get 1 extra with hands at 6th with smaller damage die). No class limitation , no race limitation, multi class is not baked in directly but several approaches are suggested. Some of the save or suck got removed which with harder saves was a good thing.
That's it in a nut shell, I'm sure there is a free quick start rules on openrpg if you are interested in reading more. But hey nothing wrong with whatever ruleset you use, enjoy!
-Mike
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Post by countingwizard on Jan 16, 2020 12:24:58 GMT -6
So it branches off from 3rd edition in an OSR direction, similar to how pathfinder branches off to become a super expanded version of 3.5?
It sounds like it still runs like a tactical tabletop miniatures battle game with RPG elements. I like some of the simplifications though. I'll have to browse the quick start to see if it interests me.
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Post by Starbeard on Jan 16, 2020 21:24:20 GMT -6
Personally I don't think it's any more tactical or miniature-minded than AD&D. My understanding of the history of it is that when 3rd edition was brand new, the folks who eventually became Troll Lord Games were one of the only people still putting out 'old school' style modules like were seen in the mid-80s. At the end of each module was a little 4-page set of rules called Swords & Sorcery, basically an AD&D Super Ultra-Lite, allowing them to write the modules the way they wanted without having to reference 3rd edition terminology or rely on the play style implied by its rules.
From there the OGL allowed them the opportunity to expand S&S into a full game. At the same time, Gygax was shopping around for a publisher to take on his Castle Zagyg project. He was by now fairly good friends with TLG, took them up on the offer, but the main problem was that Zagyg was being written for Gary's AD&D rules. It was decided that the new game should have virtually seamless compatibility with anything written for AD&D (and therefore Gary's Zagyg work). They developed the game by play testing copiously with TSR-era fans (at that time 'OSR' wasn't yet a term and I'm not even sure if 'old school' was that widely used for people who rejected WOTC's 3e). They also consulted Gary himself as much as they could, supposedly running everything by him for editing or approval, and renamed the game to C&C after Gary's old club, to signal that this game was a return to D&D in the spirit Gary envisioned it being played.
In terms of design, the main writers have stated that their method was to read back through every edition of D&D and mark out everything that was common to all of them; in their minds, this was the DNA of the D&D experience. Further rules were added in only to the point of making the game 'complete' in itself, and no additional funny business. Basically, the goal was to make C&C 'the Rosetta Stone of D&D'.
I think its history with Gygax also places it as close to being the 'real' AD&D 3rd edition as we'd ever get.
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Post by Finarvyn on Jan 17, 2020 5:39:54 GMT -6
I like to think of C&C as a blend of AD&D 1E with 3E. As mgtremaine noted, it started with the 3E SRD and then worked to bring back an old school feel. Not quite as "loose" as OD&D but more like AD&D in flavor. (I'm biased because I was a playtester back in the day, along with my family, and the TLG folks hit a home run with C&C IMO.)
The "SIEGE mechanic" is pretty neat, I think, and simple. Essentially, skills are either "prime" or not based on your class and "prime" skills get a +6 to the die roll. It's explained a little differently using Target Numbers, but that's essentially what happens in the game.
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Post by jeffb on Jan 17, 2020 9:25:04 GMT -6
It sounds like it still runs like a tactical tabletop miniatures battle game with RPG elements. . Not at all. |
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Post by jeffb on Jan 17, 2020 9:29:28 GMT -6
This will make your life easier if you have found the Sige Engine a little clunky. Someone really dug into the math for the Siege Checks over at the TLG forums Now you can simply use levels of difficulty and no need to worry about prime/non prime- Its already calculated into the formula in the very left columns-Find the levels of the PC's write down the 3 numbers for normal/hard/heroic tasks, done. All the columns to the right of the Task difficulty are just breaking down the math to show people. This does not replace combat or saves. It's simply for checks. So for example PCs are 4th level- Normal is 18, Hard is 21 and Heroic is 24 Player rolls D20 adds attribute mod + level mod, plus 4 if prime- all precalculated on the character sheet. Make a hard strength check- Fighter is level 4 has a +2 str mod, and STR is prime- (4+2+4 = +10) So D20+10 trying to hit TN 21.  |
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Post by Starbeard on Jan 17, 2020 9:35:41 GMT -6
I didn't really know what it was when it was first out. I think I saw it as just another bandwagon knock off of d20, and at the time I had 0% interest in anything d20. Since maybe the past year I've been learning more about what it actually is and the rules it uses, and my interest in picking up a copy grows more and more.
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Post by Falconer on Jan 17, 2020 10:00:39 GMT -6
Short version, there was a difference of opinion within the original C&C community between those who wanted it to be 3E lite and those who wanted more of a 1E clone. We expected a 1E clone because that the originally stated idea, something as AD&D-like as possible to facilitate the publication of Gary’s castle. Well, when it took a turn toward 3E lite, we spun off into a separate project called OSRIC.
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Post by thegreyelf on Jan 18, 2020 15:13:07 GMT -6
So it branches off from 3rd edition in an OSR direction, similar to how pathfinder branches off to become a super expanded version of 3.5? It sounds like it still runs like a tactical tabletop miniatures battle game with RPG elements. I like some of the simplifications though. I'll have to browse the quick start to see if it interests me. C&C is absolutely NOT a tactical tabletop miniatures game. There are zero tactical combat or miniatures rules in it at all. Indeed, it's 99% compatible with AD&D 1e--all you need to do to use your AD&D modules and monster books is flip the AC to high instead of low, and assign physical, mental, or all as Primes for monster saves. C&C is often thought of as the game that launched the OSR (though we at TLG don't consider ourselves an OSR company). It takes everything that made AD&D cool, removes the complexities, and replaces it with a streamlined d20-based mechanic. The only real reason to say it's based on d20 is that it used the OGL. As Falconer said, above, OSRIC was a spiritual spin off from C&C by folks who wanted it to be more AD&D, and it was followed by S&W, and all the others we know today. Everything in C&C is based on an ability check where you roll a d20, add your ability bonus and level, and try to get a target number. The target number is based on two factors: the Challenge Level from 0-10 (usually), and whether or not your ability is Prime. If it's Prime your Challenge Base is 12; if it's non-Prime, your Challenge Base is 18. You assign Primes when you create the character. Humans get 3 Primes; demi-humans get 2. One of your Primes is always set by your character class. So Fighters, for example, will always have Strength as a Prime. The player chooses the others as they like. Even saving throws are done in this manner. Combat works the same, save that instead of level, you're adding your Base to Hit bonus to your Strength (melee) or Dex (ranged) vs. the target's AC. That's quite literally the entire system. Some people don't like the Prime/Non-Prime split in base difficulty. The easiest way to remove that, which is functionally equivalent, is to use 18 as your base difficulty, modified by the CL. If you have a Prime, you add a +6 "prime bonus" to your check. |
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Post by thegreyelf on Jan 18, 2020 15:19:40 GMT -6
Personally I don't think it's any more tactical or miniature-minded than AD&D. My understanding of the history of it is that when 3rd edition was brand new, the folks who eventually became Troll Lord Games were one of the only people still putting out 'old school' style modules like were seen in the mid-80s. At the end of each module was a little 4-page set of rules called Swords & Sorcery, basically an AD&D Super Ultra-Lite, allowing them to write the modules the way they wanted without having to reference 3rd edition terminology or rely on the play style implied by its rules. From there the OGL allowed them the opportunity to expand S&S into a full game. At the same time, Gygax was shopping around for a publisher to take on his Castle Zagyg project. He was by now fairly good friends with TLG, took them up on the offer, but the main problem was that Zagyg was being written for Gary's AD&D rules. It was decided that the new game should have virtually seamless compatibility with anything written for AD&D (and therefore Gary's Zagyg work). They developed the game by play testing copiously with TSR-era fans (at that time 'OSR' wasn't yet a term and I'm not even sure if 'old school' was that widely used for people who rejected WOTC's 3e). They also consulted Gary himself as much as they could, supposedly running everything by him for editing or approval, and renamed the game to C&C after Gary's old club, to signal that this game was a return to D&D in the spirit Gary envisioned it being played. In terms of design, the main writers have stated that their method was to read back through every edition of D&D and mark out everything that was common to all of them; in their minds, this was the DNA of the D&D experience. Further rules were added in only to the point of making the game 'complete' in itself, and no additional funny business. Basically, the goal was to make C&C 'the Rosetta Stone of D&D'. I think its history with Gygax also places it as close to being the 'real' AD&D 3rd edition as we'd ever get. This isn't entirely accurate. TLG actually started off as a d20/3e company. The funny thing is, it was originally founded so that Steve, Davis, and Mac could fund a trip to Gen Con, and it started with a few d20 adventure modules and I think a small set of miniatures rules. After that, they got a deal with Gary Gygax to produce his Gygaxian Fantasy series of hardcover generic supplements, which were a big hit. Castles & Crusades came later, when they realized they had an actual business on their hands that wasn't sustainable without a core game--plus, they weren't crazy about the complexity of d20, and they wanted something that could be used with all their old AD&D materials so that they could continue play in Steve's long-running campaign world of Aihrde without the need for complex tactical combat and options bloat that came with D&D 3. So they worked with Gary to create Castles & Crusades. While he didn't do any of the design work, his thoughts, ideas, opinions and approvals are all through it. Gary used to call it "the spiritual successor to my AD&D." |
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Post by Starbeard on Jan 18, 2020 15:53:55 GMT -6
Thanks for the clarifications, thegreyelf. I knew there was some loosey goosey gaps in my understanding of it, but I wasn't sure what/where they were. |
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Post by thegreyelf on Jan 18, 2020 16:07:53 GMT -6
Thanks for the clarifications, thegreyelf. I knew there was some loosey goosey gaps in my understanding of it, but I wasn't sure what/where they were. Sure thing! That's also a very abbreviated version of the story. I'm not comfortable going into much detail as it's not really my story to tell, if that makes sense. I've been a fan of C&C since it first hit the stands, but I've only been with TLG in some fashion or another since around 2010 or so, and only a staff writer for about the past 5 years, give or take. |
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Post by derv on Jan 18, 2020 16:22:30 GMT -6
I never knew anything other than B/X and 1e AD&D prior to leaving the hobby in my teens (I did play other games too- Gamma World, Star Frontier, Car Wars, James Bond, etc.) and lost touch with any changes to the game in the interim. So, there was really no distinctions to be made for me between the old and the new when I returned to the hobby. I no longer had any of my old rulebooks or boxed sets to even reference at the time. The only thing I held onto was my dice and the only thing I had to reference was my memory of how we use to play. There were basically three games that got me back into roleplaying. They were Stukey's Microlite74 (free and was the first to light the spark), Tunnels & Trolls (Oh I remembered the other game- simple and fun), and C&C (yeah, this kind of reminds me of AD&D).
I bought the core books for C&C but only did a short stint with the game before moving on to other things. But, I think it's an excellent gateway game for new gamers or old returning players. The only book you really need to run the game is the Player's Handbook. And, comparatively the Troll Lords books and supplements are very affordable.
If the truth be told, the one thing that I never cared for with C&C was the art. Just not my thing.
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I see you got both... Nice. My Original also arrived, they sure crammed a lot of goodness in that box.
