Initiative in Blackmoor

[retrorob]

Is there any particular source indicating how Dave Arneson ruled on initiative in melee in his campaign? Recently I've read at Secrets of Blackmoor that there was no initiative at all, both sides just rolled the dice. But if I remember correctly, someone pointed out (unfortunately I forgot who and where) that players went first (as in the Bufkin manuscript).

[Deleted]

In Empire of the Petal Throne, the players went first but monsters got a "death blow" allowing them to attack on the same round they were killed. This effectively is no initiative as both the monsters and players attack each round regardless of the outcome of the dice. (I would also say that this is the most realistic way of running combat as people and animals typically don't die instantly)

So it's possible for players to go first and for there to be no initiative at the same time.

[retrorob]

Well, you actually roll for initiative in EPT (here it is called a "Reaction time"):

If both
parties surprise each other, or if neither party surprises the other, then both parties
roll a 6-sided die. The higher score gets to act first (“reaction-time”). In case of
a tie, both parties roll again.

and you can eliminate the enemy before he or she reacts:

Spells take effect, if successful, in the combat round in which they are cast.
Thus, if a magic user or priest has the best reaction time (see below) and casts a
successful spell of “Control Person” upon an enemy magician, his spell takes
effect, and his opponent has no chance to act.

PC also have a dying-blow:

A fighter always gets a chance to strike on any combat round in
which he in involved. Thus, even if he is slain on that round, he has a chance to
take a “dying blow” as he dies.

Though I'm not sure if it's restricted to the Fighter class only?

[magremore]

I had asked this question—or similar to it anyway, as I had picked up the idea of players going first and couldn't remember where I had read that—on a different board a couple of years ago. aldarron responded:

I *think* Magremor, you got that from me. At least I think I said that somewhere, based on combat anecdotes from some of the original players and the Beyond This Point be Dragons/Dalluhn mss., which for a time I thought might have been edited by Arneson. BTPbD/Dalluhn has "The Player will always get the first chop unless he is surprized or opponent has the higher ground." (Bk II, p23). So, theoretically at least, during part of the playtest phase of D&D both Arneson and Gygax were letting the players attack first.

What Arneson was really doing, at least early on, in terms of turn sequence, is best informed by the Strategos rules the Twin Cities group were using for virtually all their wargaming. In those rules all movement is considered simultaneous.

And he later added:

Was re-reading a last year email from Dave Megarry, and noticed him describing the process with Arneson. He said after your characters spotted the monster, Arneson would ask what you wanted to do and give you about ten seconds to answer. If you hesitated, the monster acted first.

[retrorob]

These anecdotes are priceless. As for the BTPBD/Dalluhn/Bufkin though, we already know that it wasn't edited by Arneson. And in Guidon D&D draft there is no such thing like first chop for the players, as confirmed by Jon Peterson on this board.

[aldarron]

Aug 27, 2019 1:06:48 GMT -6 retrorob said:

These anecdotes are priceless. As for the BTPBD/Dalluhn/Bufkin though, we already know that it wasn't edited by Arneson. And in Guidon D&D draft there is no such thing like first chop for the players, as confirmed by Jon Peterson on this board.

Right, but that actually lends credence to the "player first" rule as reflective of Twin Cities practice. Mark Bufkin edited BTPBD as a player in Chuck Monson's group in Duluth. Chuck Monson played in Arneson's group in TC and played as he learned to from Arneson.

When Bufkin decided to re-edit the mess that was the GD&D draft, he recognized defined combat was lacking in the draft and created a detailed combat section drawing heavily from CHAINMAIL, but it seems to have not occurred to him to use CHAINMAIL's d6 turn based sequence which people often point to as the source of D&D initiative. Instead Bufkin gives a player first rule, strongly implying that was what he was accustomed to from Monson's games. It's no surprise, and no coincidence, that we see other Player First ideas in Barker and Megarry.
Even Megarry's Dungeon! has players attacking first.

[retrorob]

aldarron

I have to admit that I don't uderstand. As I pointed out above, Barker rolled for initiative (at least there is a rule for it in EPT), Bufkin had players first. Recently Griff from "Secrets of Blackmoor" argued that there was no initiative at all.

[aldarron]

Sept 9, 2019 12:16:32 GMT -6 retrorob said:

aldarron

I have to admit that I don't uderstand. As I pointed out above, Barker rolled for initiative (at least there is a rule for it in EPT), Bufkin had players first. Recently Griff from "Secrets of Blackmoor" argued that there was no initiative at all.

I'm not sure which bit you got confused by, but I'll try to put it another way. In pre D&D TC play there apparently was no initiative roll. Print and player recollection evidence agree that Players simply went first by convention, unless the referee ruled otherwise.

Published EPT isn't a "clean" or reliable source of Twin cities practice, or even of Barker's actual at table practice, and for that matter, neither are the drafts being written for and edited by TSR. That material must be taken with care when trying to parse out what rules ideas stem from what source.

Having said that, the first EPT draft of 1974 doesn't mention initiative rolls anywhere that I've noticed (I just looked through the combat section). It does present in the group combat discussion as though players are going before opponents. I wouldn't make too much of that one way or the other though.

[retrorob]

aldarron

OK, I get it now - I wasn't aware that some EPT pre-publication drafts exist. It seems completely plausible that "reaction roll" (ie. initiative roll) was interpolated by TSR. Thanks!