"Fighting Capability," again...

[Finarvyn]

I keep thinking about "Fighting Capability" and had what might be a new thought on the subject.

Monsters have one combat number: hit dice. If you know the HD of the monster you can get its hit points, but also you know which row of the chart to use when it attacks.

PC's have two combat numbers: hit dice and "fighting capability". As some classes are more offensive or more defensive than others, PCs have the "advantage" that those two numbers don't need to match. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. The problem is that "fighting capability" has value in some versions of Chainmail but not so much in a regular OD&D campaign. FC gets pushed aside and Attack Matrix 1: Men Attacking gets used instead. This chart makes use of character level instead of HD or FC, so the two combat numbers in reality become HD and level.

Which means that "Fighting Capability" has no purpose. Until now.

So, here was my thought: throw out Attack Matrix 1: Men Attacking and instead use a combination of "Fighting Capability" and Attack Matrix 2: Monsters Attacking. Use FC on Matrix 2 the same way that monsters use HD Matrix 2.

I typed up some notes on this and am attaching it below:

Finaryn FC Alternate Combat 2019.pdf (139.86 KB)

I can't decide if it's a new idea or not. I can't remember seeing it anywhere, but my memory is sometimes random so who knows.

[waysoftheearth]

Chainmail's FC combines two stats: attack-capability and defence-capability. E.g., for normal combat: the Fantasy Reference Table shows goblins (frex) "Attack As" heavy foot and "Defend As" light foot. For fantasy combat see the FCT where each figure has explicit attack and defense numbers versus each other fantastic figure.

Nice. Now, over in D&D-land...

Edit: FC is not explicitly used or required for D&D; some of the following is merely a logical side effect of what is printed.

The D&D-FC stat is somewhat different in that it expresses an attack-capability only (in D&D defence-capability is mostly represented by AC and hp) and it presents normal and fantastic stats together. E.g, a Swordsman has FC of "3 men/hero-1", so he fights as 3 men (in normal combat) or as a hero at -1 (in fantastic combat). D&D monsters get their normal combat FC from M&T p5, which says: against normal, monsters have one attack as a (normal) man-type per HD. In otherwords: monsters have a (normal combat) FC of one man for each HD they have.


The distinction between normal and fantastic combat isn't explicit on the Alternative attack matrices, but the first column of AM 1 (THAC2 17) is the (implied) normal combat matrix. I.e., a normal man uses this column, as does any figure attacking "as a normal man". The 6 HD troll has FC of "6 men" (against normals) and therefore gets six attacks using the first column of AM 1 (THAC2 17). E.g., it attacks just like six men. Similarly, an anti-hero has 4 HD and a FC of "4 men" so gets four attacks using the first column of AM 1 at THAC2 17 (ignoring the hero example in SR#1.2 which unfortunately breaks this symmetry). Normal attacks delivery normal hits; normal hits do 1-6 hp damage.

All the other columns of AM 1 & 2 are the Alternative system's (implied) fantastic combat matrix. I.e., a 4th level F-M has a FC of "Hero" in fantastic combat (vs trolls and the like), which means he "fights as" a Hero/4th level F-M on AM 1. That is: he gets one fantastic attack using the second column of AM 1 (THAC2 15). A D&D-hill-giant has 8 HD so "fights as" an 8 HD monster in fantastic combat. That is, it gets one fantastic attack using the 6th column of AM 2 (THAC2 11). Fantastic hits are not the same as normal hits. I.e., fantastic hits beat invulnerability to normal weapons.

FC also has another use:
There are various monster or magical effects which affect "normal men" (e.g., Ghoul paralysis). A figure having a heroic (or above) FC is presumably "heroic" (and no longer normal) and therefore immune to these and this can be crucial--especially being (or not being) subject to a monster's normal combat attacks! There are also a bunch of monsters which are immune to normal missiles or normal weapons. Any figure having a heroic (or above) FC can therefore affect these monsters even without magical weapons (as the Protection from Normal Missiles spell describes).

Hope that's useful input

[Deleted]

Rob Kuntz has stated repeatedly that Gary put in the CHAINMAIL system to boost CHAINMAIL sales.

To the best of my knowledge it was *** never actually playtested!***

[Finarvyn]

I get that Gary put in CHAINMAIL to boost sales. Not debating this. My point is that in the OD&D rules there is a "Fighting Capability" stat that could be used for attack rolls, whether it was intended to be used that way or not.

So my question is -- does the attack bonus progression derived from FC give a better set of numbers than Attack Matrix 1?

[peterlind]

Just a quick comment for the monsters with Hit Dice "plus", like trolls with 6+3 HD:

Attack/Defense capabilities versus normal men are simply a matter of allowing one roll as a man-type for every hit die, with any bonuses being given to only one of the attacks, i.e. a Troll would attack six times, once with a +3 added to the die roll. . ." Vol. 2, p. 5.

[gemini476]

I don't recall how things shake up for Fighting-Men, but if I remember correctly you get some fairly wacky stuff going on with Magic-Users and Clerics.

Looking at the booklet to remind me, it's probably the transition from Hero +1 to Wizard and Hero +1 to Superhero -1. While they're both obviously strange in mass combat (from four men +1 to two armored foot, and from four men +1 to eight men -1), they also get somewhat funky on the Fantasy Combat Table.

For example:
A Hero+1 hits an Ent on an 11. A Superhero-1 hits a Giant on a 12. This is the only time the two are that close, but it's worth considering.
A Hero+1 hits a Giant on a 10. A Wizard hits it on 11. Hero also goes from 6 to 8, Super Hero 9 to 10, and Wight/Ghoul 5 to 6. On the opposite end of things, Wraiths jump from 10 to 5.

It's very obviously not seriously playtested and largely just based on gutfeel. It's also fairly obvious that the Fighting-Man is the most developed table, and that the Cleric's table is squashed: just look at how the F-M goes through "Hero +1 or 5 Men" and 6 men before arriving at Superhero-1 (ostensibly close to 7 men), while the Cleric just jumps straight to Superhero+1 without even gaining a hit dice at those levels!

The Fighting-Man is fairly reasonable, on the other hand, mostly because it's already so closely tied to Chainmail's Hero/Superhero progression. The questions are mostly just "what does Hero+1 or 5 men actually mean" and "what counts as heavy vs. armored equipment", but those are fairly easy questions to answer. The other two classes just have fundamental math issues with their progression, though.

[retrorob]

gemini476

besides, in Chainmail Magician, Warlock and Sorcerer are like Wizards -3, -2 and -1 respectively. Fighting Capability column changes that considerably, they are no longer Wizards, Magician is "3 Men +1", Warlock has Hero status, Sorcerer is Hero+1. Now compare it with Fantasy Combat Table. Wizard needs 7 to drive back Balrog for example, so Warlock would need 9. Hero needs 11.

Interestingly, Bufkin's BTPBD also includes Fighting Capability column but drops Hero/Superhero/Wizard stuff entirely. I wish I could take a look into Guidon D&D draft!

[waysoftheearth]

Aug 10, 2019 9:43:57 GMT -6 @gronanofsimmerya said:

Rob Kuntz has stated repeatedly that Gary put in the CHAINMAIL system to boost CHAINMAIL sales.

Aug 10, 2019 10:14:00 GMT -6 Piper said:

Just quoting for agreement. I've been called a liar (usually indirectly, sometimes not) so many times for saying this I rarely bring it up any longer.

We all know that guys.

I didn't take this discussion to be restricted to what EGG played or intended. I saw it as an opportunity to celebrate one of the many permutations and possibilities of D&D beyond whatever was explicit or intended.

[waysoftheearth]

Aug 10, 2019 11:46:55 GMT -6 Finarvyn said:

So my question is -- does the attack bonus progression derived from FC give a better set of numbers than Attack Matrix 1?

Are you asking: Is a fighter more likely to hit/kill using CM's M2M/FCT or using D&D's Alternative matrices?

I've calculated the probabilities once upon a time. I don't recall the exact numbers off the top of my head, but my general recollection is that the CM matrices are more deadly.

Another thing I recall is that although D&D's AM 1 progression doesn't accommodate the FC tiered progression exactly, it's pretty close. My recollection is that the official AM 1 is "off by 1" pip through the mid levels, but that each tier of FC (normal/hero/superhero) is generally worth around 3 pips of THAC2 on a d20.

I.e., something like this works as an "amended" AM 1 that accommodates the FC tiers more neatly:

man: THAC2 17
man+1: 16
hero-1: 15
hero: 14
hero+1: 13
superhero-1: 12
superhero: 11
superhero+1: 10

Another obscure thing is: if you round up all the demigods in GDG&H it turns out (again from memory) they are generally equivalent to 14th level fighters, and therefore have THAC2 8 on AM 1. Clearly this was never intended by the authors, but one can imagine a demigod-1 FC (THAC2 9) and a demigod FC (THAC2 8) tacked onto the above progression. This doesn't imply a mortal man "becomes" a demigod, it merely recognises that he could eventually (as a 14th level fighter) "attack as" a demigod.

Not sure if that answers the question but I hope it's useful?

[waysoftheearth]

Aug 10, 2019 16:21:50 GMT -6 retrorob said:

in Chainmail Magician, Warlock and Sorcerer are like Wizards -3, -2 and -1 respectively. Fighting Capability column changes that considerably, they are no longer Wizards, Magician is "3 Men +1", Warlock has Hero status, Sorcerer is Hero+1. Now compare it with Fantasy Combat Table. Wizard needs 7 to drive back Balrog for example, so Warlock would need 9. Hero needs 11.

Yeah, agreed. Wizard FC is something that doesn't translate neatly into D&D-land. Very broadly, a CM-Wizard is effective against highly magical creatures, but not as effective versus brute physical strength figures.

D&D's Alternative matrices don't directly support this dichotomous capability. One solution I've toyed with is to have Wizard FC equivalent to Superhero FC versus magical/magic-using figures, but equivalent to Hero FC versus non-magical figures. Or, more simply put, M-U's "fight as" one tier up vs magical creatures. I could see this kind of thing working nicely for clerics vs undead, for example

[Finarvyn]

Aug 10, 2019 17:56:05 GMT -6 waysoftheearth said:

Another obscure thing is: if you round up all the demigods in GDG&H it turns out (again from memory) they are generally equivalent to 14th level fighters, and therefore have THAC2 8 on AM 1. Clearly this was never intended by the authors, but one can imagine a demigod-1 FC (THAC2 9) and a demigod FC (THAC2 8) tacked onto the above progression. This doesn't imply a mortal man "becomes" a demigod, it merely recognises that he could eventually (as a 14th level fighter) "attack as" a demigod.

Not sure if that answers the question but I hope it's useful?

Dunno if it is useful or not, but it's really cool.

[geoffrey]

Aug 10, 2019 9:43:57 GMT -6 @gronanofsimmerya said:

Rob Kuntz has stated repeatedly that Gary put in the CHAINMAIL system to boost CHAINMAIL sales.

To the best of my knowledge it was *** never actually playtested!***

I didn't know that. Very interesting!

[retrorob]

waysoftheearth

I think the FC column doesn't work particularly well also for F-M. For example: Swashbuckler and Myrmidon fight as Hero +1, Champion as Super Hero -1, right? Also: Hero needs 12 to drive back Ent, Super Hero needs 11, the difference is only 1 pip. Let's suppose that I got a 11 on 2d6 for a Myrmidon (so it's now 12: drive back) and 11 for a Champion (so it's 10: no effect).

Yeah, it wasn't probably even playtested.

[Deleted]

Aug 10, 2019 11:46:55 GMT -6 Finarvyn said:

I get that Gary put in CHAINMAIL to boost sales. Not debating this. My point is that in the OD&D rules there is a "Fighting Capability" stat that could be used for attack rolls, whether it was intended to be used that way or not.

So my question is -- does the attack bonus progression derived from FC give a better set of numbers than Attack Matrix 1?

"Better" is entirely subjective. Different, certainly.

[waysoftheearth]

Aug 12, 2019 7:53:30 GMT -6 retrorob said:

waysoftheearth

I think the FC column doesn't work particularly well also for F-M. For example: Swashbuckler and Myrmidon fight as Hero +1, Champion as Super Hero -1, right? Also: Hero needs 12 to drive back Ent, Super Hero needs 11, the difference is only 1 pip. Let's suppose that I got a 11 on 2d6 for a Myrmidon (so it's now 12: drive back) and 11 for a Champion (so it's 10: no effect).

Yeah, it wasn't probably even playtested.

Nice pickup retrorob.

A hero+1 is better than superhero-1 for that one specific example (attacking vs ent). For most other cases it appears the superhero is 2 pips (on 2d6) better than the hero, however; vs troll/ogres the superhero is 4 pips better, and vs wraiths the superhero is 3 pips better. I'd have no problem adjusting a superhero to 10 (rather than 11) vs ents considering he requires a 9 vs giants and balrogs and a 10 vs dragons.

On the defense side of the equation the ent needs a 4+ vs a hero, or a 7+ vs a superhero. All other types require 2 or 3 more pips vs superheroes than vs heroes, so that seems okay.

[retrorob]

I don't like these discrepancies, Wizards are handled way much better (Sorcerer at -1, Warlock at -2, Magician -3 and Seer -4). If I were to tinker this table, I would make something similar for the fighters: Champion is like Super Hero -1, right? So let the Myrmidon/Swashbuckler be at -2, Hero at-3 and Swordsman/Warrior/Veteran at -4. Plain and simple.

[waysoftheearth]

I agree that would be simpler, albeit a more significant mod.

The nuance is that (given a throw of 2d6) a -1 adjustment has varying weight across the range of target numbers. I.e., a hero needs to throw an 11+ vs a giant and 7+ vs another hero. The theoretical hero-1 therefore has to throw a 12 vs giants and an 8+ vs another hero.

p(11+) = 3/36 and p(12) = 1/36, so the -1 adjustment is worth -2/36 (-5.6%, or approx. -1 pip on a d20) vs giants.
Meanwhile,
p(7+) = 21/36 and p(8+) = 15/36, so the -1 adjustment is worth -6/36 (-16.7%, or approx. -3 pips on a d20) vs heroes.


One way to "mitigate" this subtlety would be to use d12 rather than 2d6, although that's an even more radical mod. FWIW, I did a stint of using d12s for D&D combat and saves a while back; it made integration of 2d6 and d20 tables almost easy... players enjoyed it. Fun times