Mace of Disruption & Cleric vs Undead Monsters Matrix

[Mordorandor]

I was looking through the Greyhawk supplement yesterday and noticed in the description of the mace of disruption the following: 

"...when it strikes any Undead creature it will disrupt its molecular structure unless the
creature is able to save [emphasis mine] on the Clerics versus Undead Monsters as if attacked by a
 Patriarch, i.e. a Vampire must roll 7 or better, a Spector [sic] must roll 9 or better, a Mummy
must roll 11 or better, and all other Undead are automatically disrupted."

I find fascinating both the able-to-save part and the values listed.

The first part is fascinating, because it seems the notion of undead saving against the effect appears so early in the evolution of the game.

The last part is fascinating, because it contradicts the CvUMM (is it offensive to refer to the matrix as such?!), which lists Mummies and Specters as being automatically turned by Patriarchs.

Has this curiosity been discussed before in a thread? I know some have turned the mechanics of the turning effect into a save/morale check, but the text above seems to suggest EGG might have at one time thought Patriarchs didn't automatically turn Mummies and Specters. Might he be referencing something other than the matrix in Men & Magic?

[talysman]

It has to be an error, regardless of whether specters/mummies are automatically turned, because the numbers indicated would make specters and mummies harder to disrupt than the much stronger vampires. The pattern on the table is clear:

• way fewer hit dice than cleric: automatically destroyed
• 2 fewer hit dice than cleric: automatically turned
• 1 fewer hit die than cleric: 7 or more on 2d6
• same hit dice as cleric: 9 or more on 2d6
• 1 more hit die than cleric: 11 or more on 2d6

Since mummies have 5 hit dice and specters have 6 hit dice, both should be easier to disrupt than a vampire with 7 to 9 hit dice.

[Mordorandor]

Jul 26, 2019 15:02:07 GMT -6 talysman said:

It has to be an error, regardless of whether specters/mummies are automatically turned, because the numbers indicated would make specters and mummies harder to disrupt than the much stronger vampires.

Agreed. Initially the number progression looked strange. Then it made sense to me if we took them to be saves ("...unless the creature is able to save....").

If we understood them to be saves, it's interesting that...

• Mummies and Specters now have a chance to resist the effect (albeit in some small way: 8.33% chance to save and 27.8% chance to save, respectively)

• It increases the chance the Vampire would resist the turn, as the save chance becomes 58.3% (7+ to save) rather than 41.7 (7+ "to hit").  
• It makes for interesting speculation on how the table might progress to the other undead types.
  

[If I knew how to put tables in that I could work with, I'd show the progression so we had a visual of just how different it would be from what we have in M&M.]

Suffice to say, the progression would give undead better chances to resist the effect.

I tend to think the text in Greyhawk is a mistake, though it's almost credible enough to make me wonder if he was doing something different on the fly or in his own campaign.

Edit: moved the decimal point in the 2.7% chance for a Specter to save to 27.8%, which is not really small at all but a significant shift from "automatically turned" to a better than 1-in-4 chance of resisting!

[Mordorandor]

I checked the AD&D 1st edition DMG, and the text for Mace of Disruption reads:

"If a mace of disruption strikes any undead creature or evil creature from one of the lower planes it functions similarly to a cleric turning undead (see ATTACK MATRICES). The mace causes such creatures to roll on matrix Ill., MATRIX FOR CLERICS AFFECTING UNDEAD, as if the wielder were 12th level, and if the creature struck scores equal to or below the number shown, it is disrupted and slain. Thus, skeletons, zombies, ghouls, shadows, and wights are instantly blasted out of existence, as are ghasts and even wraiths; and mummies have only a 20% chance, spectres 35%, vampires 50%, ghosts 65%, liches 80%, and other affected evil creatures 95% chance of saving."

Here the approach is reversed as well. Interesting!

Normally, Clerics are the active agent when turning undead, and either the player or referee rolls 1d20 in an attempt to meet or exceed the target number, which then turns the monsters.

However, with the mace of disruption, the mechanic is reversed, and the roll on the same table becomes a save--one in which the result must meet or exceed the number given. EGG even spells out the percentages.

I'm thinking the text in Greyhawk isn't a mistake, and that it's deliberately written to give Mummies a save of 11+, Specters 9+, and Vampires 7+. The reference to the matrix must be a mistake or a bit hasty/sloppy.

Edit: again noted the save for the undead must meet or exceed the number given on the Turn Matrix, which normally would be a successful turn for a cleric when turning.

[Malchor]

Jul 26, 2019 12:34:24 GMT -6 Mordorandor said:

I was looking through the Greyhawk supplement yesterday and noticed in the description of the mace of disruption the following: 

"...when it strikes any Undead creature it will disrupt its molecular structure unless the
creature is able to save [emphasis mine] on the Clerics versus Undead Monsters as if attacked by a
 Patriarch, i.e. a Vampire must roll 7 or better, a Spector [sic] must roll 9 or better, a Mummy
must roll 11 or better, and all other Undead are automatically disrupted."

I find fascinating both the able-to-save part and the values listed.

The first part is fascinating, because it seems the notion of undead saving against the effect appears so early in the evolution of the game.

The last part is fascinating, because it contradicts the CvUMM (is it offensive to refer to the matrix as such?!), which lists Mummies and Specters as being automatically turned by Patriarchs.

Has this curiosity been discussed before in a thread? I know some have turned the mechanics of the turning effect into a save/morale check, but the text above seems to suggest EGG might have at one time thought Patriarchs didn't automatically turn Mummies and Specters. Might he be referencing something other than the matrix in Men & Magic?

I ran into this in my campaign. I think there was an attempt to tie this role to the Cleric table, but it got muddled.

In the end, what I think works is to go with a roll-at-or-over save using the values given—and ignore the reference to the Cleric v Undead table.

That said, it is kind of cool to think of the Clerics v Undead table as a save for the undead rather than a success table for the Cleric and how this might relate to the Savings throw table.

[Zenopus]

Interesting; I've never looked into this in detail.

The implied regular progression on the Cleric vs Undead table is every odd number: ...1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13 (which is "No Effect" since it can't be rolled on 2d6)..., but once the Cleric only needs a "5" or more, Turning is automatic, and once the Cleric only needs a "1" or more, Disruption is automatic. So numbers below 7 and above 11 are substituted with the appropriate effect.

So if the automatic results didn't appear on the table, the progression for Patriarchs would be 3, 5, 7 for the three most powerful undead.

So, the Mace essentially takes these numbers and uses the inverse numbers on the progression (11, 9, 7) as a saving throw for the monsters. I believe this saving throw should be rolled on 2d6. Anything that would be automatically disrupted by the Patriarch is automatically disrupted by the Mace.

I believe this gives the powerful monsters a better chance of survival than if just the implied progression was used (e.g., if the mace needed to roll a 3 or more on 2d6 to disrupt a mummy there would be a ~97% percent chance of success, so only a ~3% survival rate, but the mummy being able to roll an 11 or more has a ~8% chance on 2d6)

[Malchor]

Mar 1, 2023 9:24:32 GMT -6 Zenopus said:

Interesting; I've never looked into this in detail.

The implied regular progression on the Cleric vs Undead table is every odd number: ...1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13 (which is "No Effect" since it can't be rolled on 2d6)..., but once the Cleric only needs a "5" or more, Turning is automatic, and once the Cleric only needs a "1" or more, Disruption is automatic. So numbers below 7 and above 11 are substituted with the appropriate effect.

So if the automatic results didn't appear on the table, the progression for Patriarchs would be 3, 5, 7 for the three most powerful undead.

So, the Mace essentially takes these numbers and uses the inverse numbers on the progression (11, 9, 7) as a saving throw for the monsters. I believe this saving throw should be rolled on 2d6. Anything that would be automatically disrupted by the Patriarch is automatically disrupted by the Mace.

I believe this gives the powerful monsters a better chance of survival than if just the implied progression was used (e.g., if the mace needed to roll a 3 or more on 2d6 to disrupt a mummy there would be a ~97% percent chance of success, so only a ~3% survival rate, but the mummy being able to roll an 11 or more has a ~8% chance on 2d6)

From a design perspective it seems, a challenge below average (7 on a 2d6) just happens, so put another way, if there is a greater than 50% chance of it working, it just does.