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Post by Finarvyn on Jul 16, 2019 20:05:22 GMT -6
I guess my story starts at finding Shadow Moon and Shadow Dawn by George Lucas and Chris Clairmont at Half Price Books the other day. I showed them to my wife who said that she remembered the movie Willow and would be interested in reading the trilogy, so I went online and picked up Shadow Star to complete the set.
I had a copy of the Willow DVD but hadn't watched it in years. Dusted it off tonight and watched the thing. It has some bad spots, but overall is really swashbuckly and a lot more fun than I remembered. Now I want to run a rogue called Madmardigan…
I know that there was a board game back in the day. I also have the novel trilogy, but haven't read it yet. I was thinking about tracking down the paperback novelization of the movie, but can't decide if it's worth my time or not.
Anyway, I was wondering if anyone else had thoughts about Willow -- as a movie, a book, or a franchise in general.
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Willow
Jul 16, 2019 20:46:49 GMT -6
Post by sixdemonbag on Jul 16, 2019 20:46:49 GMT -6
"Son of a motherless goat!"
I love Willow (the movie.) Kilmer was great. The storming the castle scene was great. The final battle between Sorsha, et al. and Queen Bavmorda was an epic sorcery duel. The stop-motion effects haven't aged well but I still prefer it to poor CGI. I definitely made some wands (aka sticks) and pretended they were magical as a kid.
I mean, try NOT watching this whole clip!:
And another just for fun:
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Willow
Jul 17, 2019 17:20:09 GMT -6
Post by Falconer on Jul 17, 2019 17:20:09 GMT -6
I watched Willow in high def (blu-ray) a few months ago. It is definitely visually very nice. It’s not something I think about very much, but, I do like it.
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Willow
Jul 17, 2019 18:54:39 GMT -6
Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2019 18:54:39 GMT -6
Yeah, the movie isn't very deep, but charming. Loved it as a kid, and the soundtrack still accompanies me on many a commute. The books try to create a sense of depth, and that is their downfall. While not bad, per se, they basically retcon the story and setting in a way that many fans have considered unnecessary, and that is admittedly pretty unexpected when looking at the early-90s light novel format, as we know it from, say, TSR. - Still so, I think the novels make for an entertaining read, precisely because all the bets are off right from the start, and precisely because they are not necessarily bad by themselves. One has to wonder what Lucas and Clarement were thinking, though.
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Willow
Jul 18, 2019 13:30:07 GMT -6
Post by Falconer on Jul 18, 2019 13:30:07 GMT -6
The Willow score has a high reputation among film score lovers. My impression from the film is that the score is VERY repetitive. But I feel the same about Wrath of Khan.
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Willow
Jul 23, 2019 7:30:32 GMT -6
Post by Malcadon on Jul 23, 2019 7:30:32 GMT -6
I grew-up watching Willow as a kid and I still like it. I like how Madmartigan is such an ass. How Nelwyns get no respect. I like that three-head troll-beast. And I always liked General Kael's menacing skull helmet.
Although, it would have been really funny if Willow lamented that he was not having to deliver more safe and convenient item, noting that "Why a baby? Why could it be something smaller and lighter and not crying all the time? Like a golden ring? Yes! No stout-folk ever risked life and limb delivering jewellery!"
By the way, Mini-Six (a rule-lite OpenD6 game) lists Rust Moon of Castia as one of its sample settings. Mind you, it contains sample settings based on Star Wars, Firefly/Serenity, Ghostbusters (but set in the Victorian-Era), and one that is every cop show/film from the '70s & '80s. Basically the writer took his own recommendation of aping plots and elements from film, TV shows and books to heart, and the game is geared towards GMs being able to run a setting on the fly. Like Willow and Shadow Moon, Rust Moon is generic enough as a fantasy setting to make it a great starting off point for new GMs, or GMs who need to cobble something together without the canonical baggage that comes with more established RPG settings, while not feeling like another vanilla D&D world.
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Willow
Jul 23, 2019 9:13:48 GMT -6
Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2019 9:13:48 GMT -6
By the way, Mini-Six (a rule-lite OpenD6 game) lists Rust Moon of Castia as one of its sample settings. Mind you, it contains sample settings based on Star Wars, Firefly/Serenity, Ghostbusters (but set in the Victorian-Era), and one that is every cop show/film from the '70s & '80s. Basically the writer took his own recommendation of aping plots and elements from film, TV shows and books to heart, and the game is geared towards GMs being able to run a setting on the fly. Like Willow and Shadow Moon, Rust Moon is generic enough as a fantasy setting to make it a great starting off point for new GMs, or GMs who need to cobble something together without the canonical baggage that comes with more established RPG settings, while not feeling like another vanilla D&D world. Your pitch here first reads a bit like a very odd non-sequitur, but I checked this out, and, yeah, this is pretty much a mini-setting inspired by Willow. Sweet.
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Willow
Jul 23, 2019 12:52:03 GMT -6
Post by Falconer on Jul 23, 2019 12:52:03 GMT -6
Random thoughts:
There is a 1988 Willow Sourcebook (generic AD&D). Super rare today. Probably not any good.
Willow came on the heels of the two Ewoks movies, which are mostly fantasy movies, and of course all three star Warwick Davis. I like to think of it as a loose trilogy, and viewed them as such, recently.
The character Sorsha is more or less how I imagine Mara Jade.
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Willow
Jul 23, 2019 13:51:28 GMT -6
Post by Starbeard on Jul 23, 2019 13:51:28 GMT -6
I think Sorsha would have made a better Mara Jade than what we ended up with.
I haven't read the books, but they're on my list. From Rafael's description, it sounds like Lucas was handling Willow the same way he was handling Star Wars with the upcoming prequels. Basically, wanting his new stories to be more than just additions to the originals, but change our perceptions of what happens in the originals.
The video game was a lot of fun, and full of attention-sucking atmosphere. I remember it being really hard, too.
I really enjoy Willow, even with its sore spots. There are plenty of movies that have sore spots just as bad or worse. As a kid, that two-headed troll terrified me!
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Willow
Jul 23, 2019 14:10:08 GMT -6
Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2019 14:10:08 GMT -6
Random thoughts: There is a 1988 Willow Sourcebook (generic AD&D). Super rare today. Probably not any good. Willow came on the heels of the two Ewoks movies, which are mostly fantasy movies, and of course all three star Warwick Davis. I like to think of it as a loose trilogy, and viewed them as such, recently. The character Sorsha is more or less how I imagine Mara Jade. Oh, that book, I saw it as a kid. A treasure for fans, indeed. BTW, what you wrote about the soundtrack, not untrue. For me, personally, I just simply like the setup: Between Willow, Madmartigan, and Sorsha, it's almost like we have a reimagination of the Star Wars trio (Luke, Han, Leia) in a fantasy environment. In principle, the possibilities of such an idea are endless. If I ever got to write D&D-style fantasy, I would probably start there.
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Willow
Jul 23, 2019 14:20:07 GMT -6
Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2019 14:20:07 GMT -6
I think Sorsha would have made a better Mara Jade than what we ended up with. I haven't read the books, but they're on my list. From Rafael's description, it sounds like Lucas was handling Willow the same way he was handling Star Wars with the upcoming prequels. Basically, wanting his new stories to be more than just additions to the originals, but change our perceptions of what happens in the originals. The video game was a lot of fun, and full of attention-sucking atmosphere. I remember it being really hard, too. I really enjoy Willow, even with its sore spots. There are plenty of movies that have sore spots just as bad or worse. As a kid, that two-headed troll terrified me! You pretty much nail it there. I think the "Willow" franchise was a test run for many of the decisions that were later made for SW, especially given the parallels between the different stories. (For example, Willow also features a "Darth Vader"-like character, but that one ends up taking the classic "lieutenant" role only.) - And like later with SW, it appears like Lucas/Lucasfilm didn't understand their own creation to the degree that they understood what had made it great: Willow, for example, is perhaps the most prominent example for the vanilla/light fantasy genre. That Chris Claremont turned it basically into "The Black Moon Chronicles" is not just bad: It's borderline incoherent. EDIT: ...And it appears that Disney understands the issue. We're going to see a "Willow" sequel in TV-series format some time soon. variety.com/2019/tv/news/ron-howard-willow-disney-series-1203202706/Woof, this thread just took a turn!
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Willow
Jul 23, 2019 14:59:38 GMT -6
Post by Falconer on Jul 23, 2019 14:59:38 GMT -6
Rafael, you’re a little vague on the Chronicles of the Shadow War trilogy. Can you be a little more specific as to what you think of it?
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Willow
Jul 23, 2019 21:38:29 GMT -6
Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2019 21:38:29 GMT -6
Rafael, you’re a little vague on the Chronicles of the Shadow War trilogy. Can you be a little more specific as to what you think of it? (I have the feeling that we talked about this on another occasion, already. ) I have been vague in order to avoid spoilers, because the premise of the trilogy is already a major revelation: By the end of the first few chapters, all main characters from the movie except for Willow and the baby are DEAD, and the world of Willow has been transformed into a post-apocalyptic wasteland. This, consequently, sets the tone for a new story that is not so much a sequel, but a complete reimagining of the setting. IIRC, it's only until the conclusion of the third book until the connection to the original movie is completely revealed: That reveal - basically, that there was fallout from Willow's and Bavmorda's own use of magic - is detached enough from the original movie to feel almost random. It makes sense within the novels themselves, but not within the context of the movie it's supposed to bookend. Elora is reintroduced in the first book, but only after a time jump, as a teenage girl that understandably suffers from a great load of PTSD, yet already bears all the signs of a Mary Sue destined savior. Willow, who has even changed his name, and generally is barely recognizable, eventually seeks her out to become her personal ersatz-Yoda, and trains her to become an ersatz-Jedi who, I am not kidding here, is destined to bring balance to the ersatz-Force, until, in the third book, Elora eventually becomes a "dragonmaster"-style character. That again, isn't even bad, just totally disconnected from the setting established in the original movie. Overall, the books make for readable YA fantasy, though. Readable, in that the characters are not terrible, and in that the setting as described by Claremont makes sense, by itself. It's just the connection to "Willow" that hurts the novels because it creates such a lack of coherency. To give you an idea what I mean - George RR Martin, in an interview to the cursed season eight of "Game of Thrones", no less, spoke about literary coherency, and about how, say, introducing an alien spaceship into his story would still probably make for a good story - but not for a logical or coherent one. - That's pretty much what happens with these supposed "Willow" sequels: They add details to the story that the writers clearly didn't anticipate during the creation of the original film, and they break the cardinal rule of storytelling in that they continuously punish the readers for any love they might have for the original movies. - Not a bad series, necessarily. But whether it was really necessary to write these books, in this form, is another question. Not trying to be overly snarky, but it's a "Lucas story" in that this was the same question I had after the SW prequels, and now, after the SW sequels (so far).
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Willow
Jan 8, 2020 7:28:38 GMT -6
Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2020 7:28:38 GMT -6
www.superherohype.com/movies/474757-jon-kasdan-teases-the-beginning-of-pre-production-writing-for-willow-series...So, we're not going to see an outright adaptation of the "Shadow War" series, but Elora Danan being described as a "young girl" and no word of Kilmer and Whalley reprising their roles certainly seems to point into the story taking a certain direction. Also, knowing Ron Howard, I guess his involvement will point towards a lore-heavy show, rather than to some overly simplified plot. Now, I assume he might not have been overly happy with "Shadow War", because, ugh, he's an intelligent guy who likes intelligent storytelling. - But he's also one of George Lucas' lifetime buddies, so I wouldn't expect him to completely try and reinvent the wheel, either. More likely, I think he'll try to write "Shadow War" right. And this might become an interesting exercise to follow.
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