Flanking Rules

[tetramorph]

Hey, @gronanofsimmerya, I was reading your blog.

What are the flanking rules you made up for your game?

Fight on!

[tetramorph]

Hey, @gronanofsimmerya, maybe you missed my post above.

I've been thinking about how to make formation and things like flanking and rear-attacks actually mean something.

So far, things have been abstract.

The other day when I tried to implement something like formation, the referee was like: you guys really don't want to try to take an action this round?

So we all broke formation so we could do the abstract everyone-has-a-little-duel-going-on kind of thing that most folks are used to.

I would really benefit from any explanation on how you handle formation and flanking in your game.

Thanks.

[Deleted]

If you aren't in close order, you will be swarmed. Three to four opponents on each PC will teach you to stay in close ranks.

If you're flanked, the flankers roll 2d20 for each attack and keep the highest, and continue to do so, and on the flanked unit's first response turn, they roll 2d20 and keep the lowest.

[tetramorph]

Apr 21, 2019 22:58:08 GMT -6 @gronanofsimmerya said:

If you aren't in close order, you will be swarmed. Three to four opponents on each PC will teach you to stay in close ranks.

If you're flanked, the flankers roll 2d20 for each attack and keep the highest, and continue to do so, and on the flanked unit's first response turn, they roll 2d20 and keep the lowest.

Gronan, thanks, this helps a lot.

Please be patient with me as I ask a few clarifying questions.

It seems like this would only work when you are actually dealing with an opponent who is also capable of formation, and therefore, capable of swarming or being swarmed when they or their opponents break formation. Like, say, bandits or orcs in a significantly greater number than that of the party.

If they are equal to or less than the party, or if the party is several on one against a single monstrous enemy, it seems like breaking rank and either one-to-one dueling (in the case of bandits or orcs in equal or less number to the fighters and perhaps clerics in the party) or surrounding and swarming a monster (e.g. a troll) would be more to the party's advantage. Yes?

Also, do you count shields off from armor class for those flanked?

Finally, do rear attacks take an even greater advantage?

Thanks, Gronan. Fight on!

[Deleted]

For bandits or orcs, etc, what possible advantage is there to breaking ranks? There is none, absolutely none. Perhaps if you outnumber them you won't get swarmed, but why in Crom's name would you break formation?

And wraparound is very much a part of every formation, so you can indeed swarm a giant or troll or something without breaking formation.

Shields don't count if you're hit from the right.

Hit from behind, the attacking unit rolls 3 d20 and takes the highest. On the first round the defenders get no counterattack. The attackers get first strike second round, again taking best of 3, and surviving defenders in the back rank roll 3d20 and take the lowest.

[Zenopus]

Tetramorph,

Gary had some additional advice in the 1E DMG on pages 69-70, inc these diagrams:



He also gives the following rules:

Attack from Flank: Negates Shield
Attack from Rear Flank: Negates Shield & Dex bonus
Attack from Rear: Negates Shield & Dex and gives an extra +2

The rules indicate that "Rear Flank" is "where the opponent is virtually unable to view the attackers", but it's not really clear which position(s) on the diagrams this is.

* * * * *

For theatre of the mind combat, you might rule that if an opponent is engaged by more than two opponents, the third attacker can automatically flank the opponent, and a fourth attacker can automatically attack from the rear. Unless the opponents are fighting in formation as indicated by Gronan. This should apply to both PCs and monsters.

[tetramorph]

Apr 22, 2019 12:23:50 GMT -6 @gronanofsimmerya said:

For bandits or orcs, etc, what possible advantage is there to breaking ranks? There is none, absolutely none. Perhaps if you outnumber them you won't get swarmed, but why in Crom's name would you break formation?

And wraparound is very much a part of every formation, so you can indeed swarm a giant or troll or something without breaking formation.

Shields don't count if you're hit from the right.

Hit from behind, the attacking unit rolls 3 d20 and takes the highest. On the first round the defenders get no counterattack. The attackers get first strike second round, again taking best of 3, and surviving defenders in the back rank roll 3d20 and take the lowest.

Okay, Gronan, I'm really grateful for your patience. I'm really trying to imagine this. Zenopus's diagrams from the DMG help a little.

Why break formation? I guess so that you can break into the everyone-has-a-little-duel thing that many folks are used to in D&D combat. It is what I am trying to escape, but it is hard for me to picture it as my experience with wargaming is at strategic and tactical levels, not skirmish.

How can you swarm without breaking rank? Sorry, I am still just having trouble visualizing this, say, with minis on a grid. It seems like swarming just exactly is the name for breaking out of formation and surrounding individual opponents.

Thanks for the point about shields and 3d6 advantage for rear attack. That helps a lot.

[Deleted]

I need time to make up some diagrams.

"Overlap" is a better term than "swarming," if that helps. It is done in a planned and orderly fashion instead of "every man/woman/whatever for themselves."

[derv]

tetramorph, look up "envelopment" on wiki. A common flanking maneuver is the "pincer" or double envelopment.

[Deleted]

Apr 22, 2019 20:31:38 GMT -6 tetramorph said:

Apr 22, 2019 12:23:50 GMT -6 @gronanofsimmerya said:

For bandits or orcs, etc, what possible advantage is there to breaking ranks? There is none, absolutely none. Perhaps if you outnumber them you won't get swarmed, but why in Crom's name would you break formation?

And wraparound is very much a part of every formation, so you can indeed swarm a giant or troll or something without breaking formation.

Shields don't count if you're hit from the right.

Hit from behind, the attacking unit rolls 3 d20 and takes the highest. On the first round the defenders get no counterattack. The attackers get first strike second round, again taking best of 3, and surviving defenders in the back rank roll 3d20 and take the lowest.

Okay, Gronan, I'm really grateful for your patience. I'm really trying to imagine this. Zenopus 's diagrams from the DMG help a little.

Why break formation? I guess so that you can break into the everyone-has-a-little-duel thing that many folks are used to in D&D combat. It is what I am trying to escape, but it is hard for me to picture it as my experience with wargaming is at strategic and tactical levels, not skirmish.

How can you swarm without breaking rank? Sorry, I am still just having trouble visualizing this, say, with minis on a grid. It seems like swarming just exactly is the name for breaking out of formation and surrounding individual opponents.

Thanks for the point about shields and 3d6 advantage for rear attack. That helps a lot.

Think of changing from column to line:

COLUMN

1 2 3
4 5 6
7 8 9
10 11 12
13 14 15


LINE

10 11 12 4 5 6 1 2 3 7 8 9 13 14 15

BEFORE the command is given, each of the 15 troopers knows where they're supposed to be at the end, as opposed to "run around and hit something."


So a wraparound might be

GIANT

10 11 12 4 5 6 1 2 3 7 8 9 13 14 15

11 10 13 14 15
12         8
4 GIANT 7
5 6 1 2 3

Note that each soldier stays next to the same person in performing the wraparound.

[Deleted]

Dang, the 8 is supposed to be right above the 7

[Deleted]

Does that help?

[waysoftheearth]

FWIW, you can use Proboards' CODE tag to get a fixed-width typeface, which is handy for ASCII art. E.g.:


Column:

---^----
01 02 03
04 05 06
07 08 09
10 11 12
13 14 15


Line:
--------------------^-----------------------
10 11 12 04 05 06 01 02 03 07 08 09 13 14 15

Wraparound:
(1)
               -----
              |G I A|
              |N T !|
               --v--


------------------^-------------------------
10 11 12 04 05 06 01 02 03 07 08 09 13 14 15




(2)
               -----
              |G I A|
-------------- |N T !|  --------------------
10 11 12 04 05 ---X---  03 07 08 09 13 14 15
              06 01 02




(3)
      10                    13 14 15
        11     -----      09
         12   |G I A|    08
          04  |N T !|   07
           05 ---X---  03
              06 01 02




(4)
                    15
                     14
           10         13
           11  -----  09
           12 |G I A| 08
           04 |N T !| 07
           05 ---X--- 03
              06 01 02


(5)

             10 15 14 13
           11  -----  09
           12 |G I A| 08
           04 |N T !| 07
           05 ---X--- 03
              06 01 02



[tetramorph]

Apr 24, 2019 16:43:37 GMT -6 @gronanofsimmerya said:

Does that help?

Absolutely!

I'm still taking it in and kind of swamped at work.

If I have any more questions (and I probably will!) I will get back with you a little later.

Thanks for all the help.

Fight on!

[tetramorph]

Apr 24, 2019 16:43:37 GMT -6 @gronanofsimmerya said:

Does that help?

@gronanofsimmerya, how long does it take to reform from one formation type to another, e.g., line to column, line to square, column to square, and vice versa?
How long to envelope a monster or overlap (swarm) unformed hostiles from the various formations?

Do you follow chainmail here, or does skirmish scale change things?

We follow the "4 Ms plus 1":
Missile (range fire)
Magic (spells, engines of war)
Melee
Move
Check morale whenever NPCs take hits.

After rolling initiative we alternate back and forth, winner missile, looser missile, winner magic, looser magic, etc.
I give a free move before missile to a party when they surprise the enemy.

How many move phases would it take to reform, envelope or overlap? Could they do it in one move phase of a round?

Thanks for helping me through this.

Fight on!

[Deleted]

For a wargame, the time to change formation should be given.

For D&D, I just use movement rates. Armored foot at the back of the formation may take more than one turn, therefore. It depends on the situation.

I use CHAINMAIL turn order; move, missile fire, melee, morale.

[retrorob]

@gronanofsimmerya

1. How do you judge Initiative?
2. Is Magic a part of missile fire?

[Deleted]

1) In D&D everybody rolls a d6, higher is better. If a group wants to act as a group for formation change, etc, I have one person roll for the group.

2) In D&D everybody does everything at their reaction time. It depends.