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Post by rustic313 on Mar 19, 2019 19:02:55 GMT -6
I have a question about how to interpret castle inhabitants venturing forth as described in U&WA and couldn't find an existing thread on the subject.
If the D6 roll indicates that the occupants venture out, what does that mean?
- Everyone goes for a hike, including lord, henchmen, special occupants like giants or whatever, and men-at-arms?
- Or.... some smaller subset?
From a military perspective, it seems most reasonable to most commonly come across recon patrols of about 10 HD, or fighting patrols of about 40 HD. A 10 HD patrol is large enough to survive round 1 of most encounters and flee for help; a 40 HD patrol is enough to handle many more common encounters at reasonable odds. I could see either type of patrol being led by a special occupant (giants, etc), henchman or lord as well. If a castle has ~100 men in the garrison, then a 10 man patrol out to a three hex distance is realistic enough. Much more than that would be quite hard to sustain. There just aren't enough guys in the garrison to be routinely sending large clearance patrols out three hexes, and standing watches in the castle, and conducting routine garrison activities (training, etc).
Sending a smaller patrol also allows the castle to maintain a garrison -- after all, if everyone sallies forth to go interrogate some 3rd level schmuck passing by, who is guarding the castle while they're out?
With that process, I think some sort of random table like this might be reasonable as an initial stab:
1-3: 10 HD recon patrol
4-5: 20-60 (2d3 x 10) HD combat patrol
6: 80% of garrison sallies forth
Alternatively, if the castle occupants have good intel about what they're walking into (from, say, a recon patrol), it would also be prudent for them to bring a sufficient force (perhaps two or three times the PC's HD to be safe). One could assume that the Lord always has perfect knowledge of intruders in his domain (through magic, spies, or whatever), or perhaps give the PCs a chance to evade such intelligence collection (pursuit and evasion table perhaps).
So, how do other folks play it? Thanks!
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Post by Red Baron on Mar 19, 2019 20:42:08 GMT -6
For castles owned by fighting men, I'd assume that the encounter would be with the lord/superhero himself, any classed henchmen, and a dozen or so regular guards, all mounted.
Wizards/sorcerers and clerics/anti-clerics would likely be at work in their castle, in which case the encounter would be with a guard patrol, led by one of the classed henchman if any.
Special occupants such as gargoyles, ents, etc are presumably stationed at the castle itself as guardians, and thus not on patrol.
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Post by delta on Mar 19, 2019 21:20:35 GMT -6
This is a really good question, and something I've wrestled with in the past. At one point I had a side-table similar to the OP's.
One thing I noticed a few weeks ago during a re-read is that exactly this happens in Three Hearts and Three Lions, on approaching the faerie duke's castle (Ch. 7): a "troop" (numbers unclear; seems large-ish) rides out, described as "the masters of Faerie", including the Duke himself. Possibly this was the mental model of the event.
My sidebar scribble: 1-3: normal mounted men (20), 4-5: special guards/retainers, 6: leader & special guards.
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Post by Zakharan on Mar 19, 2019 22:57:28 GMT -6
I puzzled it out myself but figured it'd be more fun to take it on a case-by-case basis.
I had a Witch's lair in the mountains, and she--apparently--preferred riding to meet them in person, atop her two Basilisks. So perhaps she had forseen their arrival, who knows?
I also thought it would be funny for a Superhero's domain to have a foul-mouthed guard slinging insults from the ramparts. If the party slings insults back, suddenly the Superhero is very interested in their language.
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Post by waysoftheearth on Mar 20, 2019 0:58:02 GMT -6
Arneson's general method for outdoor encounters (from FFC) seems to be that 10--60% of creatures of a "lair" (also referred to as a "castle" and a "camp") should be wandering about "out in the countryside". The remainder are in the lair/castle/camp.
I don't think he specifies precisely *who* should be included in the away team, but does suggest that--on an additional d6 throw of 6--the away team can (repeatedly) be divided into two equal sized groups, which could prove interesting...
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Post by rustic313 on Mar 20, 2019 5:19:26 GMT -6
This is a really good question, and something I've wrestled with in the past. At one point I had a side-table similar to the OP's. One thing I noticed a few weeks ago during a re-read is that exactly this happens in _Three Hearts and Three Lions_, on approaching the faerie duke's castle (Ch. 7): a "troop" (numbers unclear; seems large-ish) rides out, described as "the masters of Faerie", including the Duke himself. Possibly this was the mental model of the event. My sidebar scribble: 1-3: normal mounted men (20), 4-5: special guards/retainers, 6: leader & special guards. A troop is a commonwealth (UK/ANZAC) military unit equivalent to a "platoon," about 50 men. An echelon smaller would be a "patrol" (squad) of 10-15 men. An echelon larger would be a "company" (battery or squadron also used) of 150 men. The first two terms still continue on in the US in the parlance of the Boy Scouts (Patrol = a dozen boys... Troop = a few patrols)... If we go with Arneson's 10-60%, then that to me implies about 35% on average. So if there's 100 regular castle guards, 3 giants, a Lord and a Henchman then I'd expect to see: 33 castle guards, 1 giant, and MAYBE the lord or henchman. That also leads us to a "troop" sized answer around 40-50 HD. |
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Post by gemini476 on Mar 20, 2019 8:51:59 GMT -6
A troop was also a unit in the US Cavalry back when that was its own thing, the equivalent of an infantry company, although it topped out at roundabout 70 (mounted) men. In this case each troop consisted of three to four platoons!
This may or may not be relevant since Holger Carlsen was trained in the US, but I don't know enough about Poul Anderson's history to know what he'd be thinking when he used the word.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2019 9:34:37 GMT -6
The reference to "Three Hearts and Three Lions" is correct .
This also happens frequently in the Arthurian legends.
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Post by retrorob on Mar 21, 2019 11:37:34 GMT -6
That's how I always understood this paragraph - the lord himself sets forth against those who cross his domain.
What puzzles me the most - let's suppose that the party is two hexes away and the judge rolled 1/6. Does it mean that the adventurers meet the lord then and there? Or the lord just leaves the castle and has to catch up with the party?
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Post by Vile Traveller on Mar 21, 2019 18:33:46 GMT -6
I my games it depends on how good the lord's surveillance network is. It should be pretty good for isolated castles in the Wilderness where there is a constant risk of incursion. If the surrounding hexes are settled and under the castle's protection, the grapevine will be as fast as the lord's scouts.
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Post by rustic313 on Mar 21, 2019 20:04:06 GMT -6
Thanks for all the quick replies! I feel comfortable saying that the "sally" should be either (A) a small recon patrol, (B) a "troop" of about 50 HD which may include some leader types, or (C) a specially tailored response.
The dice mechanics I think I'll try out to model that are:
Roll two different colored dice (say, red and blue).
- Patrols: If the red die has the highest result, then the party encounters a ~10 HD reconnaissance patrol or herald. Such groups may include special castle occupants.
- Troops: If the blue die has a greater result, then the number on the die indicates the number of tens of HD that have sallied. Such groups will almost always include special castle occupants.
- Baron: If both dice show the same number, then the Baron (or one of their henchmen) plus escorts equaling ten times the number showing have sallied forth.
- Appropriate Responses: If the party is large and obviously warlike (or has a reputation as Murder Hobos), do not use the random procedure unless the Lord is surprised (1-2/6 base chance). Instead, devise an appropriate response based on the Baron's personality and resources -- such as ambush by small forces, a sally by large overwhelming forces, or retreat to the safety of the Stronghold.
- Mounts: Do not consider the HD of mounts in the above dice rolls unless the mounts are monsters themselves (like Dragons, etc). Assume all parties more than one hex from the castle are appropriately mounted unless the terrain is very rough.
Example of Play: The Judge determines a patrol from an Evil High Priest's castle has run across the PCs. The Judge rolls two dice, one red and one blue. The red die shows "5" and the blue die shows "2," so the judge determines this a smaller reconnaissance patrol of about 10 HD. The Judge decides a troll (one of the castle occupants -- 6 HD) and four orcish foot soldiers are out looking for interlopers. The orcs are mounted atop mangy horses and will flee to the castle to report to the EHP if the fighting goes poorly.
The results of this and their implications are as follows: Essentially this dice mechanic is creating a bimodal distribution of results, where you get a bunch of results of "10 HD" and a bunch of "40-60 HD" with an occasional leadership sally in there.
- The Lord & Escort: 1/6 of the time the Lord or their Henchmen may a personal appearance. I don't want the Lord to always be out and about because frankly it makes them too easy to murder in the wilderness. Why would a Lord (or Wizard, or Patriarch) leave their nice safe castle to go get set upon by Murder Hobo PCs in a surprise round? Remember, at least half of NPC strongholds are hostile to the PCs and the other half are selfish neutrals so it isn't like the NPCs are going to be excited to make friends in the wooded glen 3 hexes from their castle. And if most of those NPC Lords are Chaotic, I imagine they want to stay close to home -- every time they leave the castle some underling is probably scheming on how to depose them. If the Baron does go for a hike then they are going to bring 10-60 HD of bodyguards with them.
- Recon Patrols & Heralds: About half the time the party will run into a small patrol which is doing recon. This is plausible, it explains why monsters don't move into the area unnoticed, and it allows the Baron to convey a message to the PCs ("The Lord cordially invites you to the castle for a Joust. Your presence shall be expected on tomorrow morn. He shall be... most disappointed if you cannot attend."). A 10 HD patrol is enough to plausibly survive the rigors of wilderness travel, and stand up to many adventuring parties for at least a round (which lets some flee to warn the stronghold if the PCs go all Murder Hobo on them).
- Troops: The other half of the time the PCs run into a larger force (probably 40-60 HD), which matches our source literature. It also is a force large enough to clear out a monster lair, or deal with a wilderness wandering encounter.
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Post by waysoftheearth on Mar 21, 2019 22:59:26 GMT -6
I my games it depends on how good the lord's surveillance network is. It should be pretty good for isolated castles in the Wilderness where there is a constant risk of incursion. If the surrounding hexes are settled and under the castle's protection, the grapevine will be as fast as the lord's scouts. It probably also depends on the particular "Lord"'s personality/outlook. Is the Lord fierce or energetic, or old, lazy, or afflicted by leprosy? Maybe the ref already knows this information. Otherwise, (e.g., if the Lord is a new introduction into the campaign) all this could be determined by the result of a reaction throw. I.e., how will the Lord react to intel that the players are snooping about his domain? The ref can make up anything that gels nicely with the result... |
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Post by delta on Mar 22, 2019 23:44:23 GMT -6
Side question: How does the Wizard who rolls "4" for guards make use of his 1d4 Basilisks? He can't ride them; he can't even look at them!
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Post by Zakharan on Mar 23, 2019 0:57:45 GMT -6
Side question: How does the Wizard who rolls "4" for guards make use of his 1d4 Basilisks? He can't ride them; he can't even look at them! My mountain witch only has two, so she rides like this:  They wear special blinders (probably tended to by automatons?). With 4 Basilisks, maybe one pair can rest while the Wizard cavorts around with the others? |
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Post by waysoftheearth on Mar 23, 2019 2:00:16 GMT -6
Side question: How does the Wizard who rolls "4" for guards make use of his 1d4 Basilisks? He can't ride them; he can't even look at them! He can look at them; he just doesn't want to meet their gaze  Maybe he has them fitted with blinkers, or wears some fancy eye-protection of his own? Regarding the touch attack: A CM basilisk (cockatrice) has (3rd Ed. p 36): "will turn to stone anyone … who looks at their face." The following sentence appears to explain the practicality of this gaze attack on the wargame table: "Any figure that touches or is touched by them must throw to be saved". Notable that CM-basilisks/cockatrice do not otherwise attack (and don't appear on the FCT). Over in D&D-land basilisks and cockatrice are separated into two beasts. The D&D Cockatrice (M&T p10) will: "turn opponents to stone by touch"; it description seems to preclude the gaze element of the attack but, mechanically, it remains similar to the CM monster, as in: figures must touch. Meanwhile the D&D-Basilisk (M&T p 10) retains the gaze element of its attack (which also becomes a vulnerability) and "has the power of turning to stone those whom it touches and those that meet its glance". One possible interpretation of "whom it touches" is that the basilisk has to actively do the touching. Interestingly the MM Basilisk description (p8) omits the touch element of its attack altogether. All that aside, the wizard could always use his trusty Basilisks to guard treasure or entrances to his castle dungeon. Or... perhaps he uses a basilisk like a bloodhound for sniffing out some herb or rare earth required for his research? |
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Post by retrorob on Mar 23, 2019 8:27:26 GMT -6
The evolution of Basilisk is interesting. In Beyond This Point Be Dragons it has the same powers as in CM:
Could someone with access to Guidon D&D draft confirm if above-quoted description matches?
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Post by delta on Mar 23, 2019 8:45:07 GMT -6
All that aside, the wizard could always use his trusty Basilisks to guard treasure or entrances to his castle dungeon. Or... perhaps he uses a basilisk like a bloodhound for sniffing out some herb or rare earth required for his research? Right, known about the history of the basilisk. Of course, I meant my question in the current context of, "Castle Occupants Venturing Out". |
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Post by aldarron on Mar 23, 2019 10:09:47 GMT -6
Rustic, you may find an answer in This Post in the Badger's excellent Wilderness Architect series. Although it is left up to the player to decide what to do, Gygax gives a list of castle forces and suggest they could be sent out in total to ambush the intruders. 200 guards are deleberately excluded from the scenario (said to be off fighting elsewhere) so that may be taken under normal circumstances to mean the guards stay at the base and the remaining forces go out. There is also the idea of scout patrols mentioned. |
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Post by waysoftheearth on Mar 23, 2019 22:55:14 GMT -6
Great link aldarron, and wonderful recall. I really like the additional variety delta in terms of a wizard sallying out with basilisks in tow, maybe he has the monsters in thrall by Charm Monster or similar enchantments, so compels them to behave as desired? |
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Post by delta on Mar 24, 2019 12:39:23 GMT -6
delta in terms of a wizard sallying out with basilisks in tow, maybe he has the monsters in thrall by Charm Monster or similar enchantments, so compels them to behave as desired? Sure, but he still can't look at them safely.  |
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Post by Red Baron on Mar 24, 2019 13:42:32 GMT -6
delta in terms of a wizard sallying out with basilisks in tow, maybe he has the monsters in thrall by Charm Monster or similar enchantments, so compels them to behave as desired? Sure, but he still can't look at them safely. He could cast invisibility on them, making them safe to handle and ride on. In combat, he could flee the scene with a fly spell, while the basilisks attacked. As per the invisibility spell, when the basilisks attacked they would break the invisibility and the wizard's enemies would need to make a save vs petrification. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2019 19:24:24 GMT -6
Or since Volume 1 includes spell research rules, maybe he researched a spell to make him and his minions immune to the gaze.
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Post by waysoftheearth on Mar 25, 2019 2:36:13 GMT -6
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Post by delta on Mar 25, 2019 19:15:22 GMT -6
True, and that's based on the AD&D PHB Illusionist spell gaze reflection. However, the tradition there is caster only, short duration (1 round in PHB!), and has the effect of reflecting/stoning your own subordinate creatures. |
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Post by waysoftheearth on Mar 25, 2019 23:43:56 GMT -6
Be inspired by, but not limited by tradition |
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Post by gemini476 on Mar 26, 2019 5:14:13 GMT -6
Note also that castle-dwelling Magic-Users, despite only being Necromancers and 11th-level (I assume) Wizards, can cast the 6th-level Geas to send people on quests for them. Which is straight out of Vance, of course, but shows that you really don't need to be that fiddly with the rules.
However, given that random encounters with castle-wizards default to "pay your magic item taxes, peasant" I'm not sure that immediately bringing out the basilisks makes sense - it's hard to take a toll from a statue, let alone get one to fetch magic items for you! For that specific one I think I prefer them to be, well, guarding the actual fortress and chained up to petrify intruders. Getting the Balrogs to follow you out to meet the party is just a power move, on the other hand, so it's definitely something to handle on a case-by-case basis.
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Post by delta on Mar 26, 2019 18:33:40 GMT -6
Anywho, I think for me the easiest thing is to say, "whoops that's a screwup", scratch out the Basilisks, and replace them with wizards riding Gorgons. Nifty. Thanks for the suggestions, all. |
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Post by rsdean on Jan 15, 2022 6:37:31 GMT -6
So, I have been reading the fantasies of William Morris (1890s) recently, and ran across this vignette from _The Sundering Flood_:
Chapter XLI. They Joust with the Knight of the Fish
Thence they rode through the fields and the thorps two days, and on the third day in the morning they saw a fair white castle on a hill, and on the plain underneath a little plump of men-at-arms under a banner. So the Knight arrayed his folk and went forward warily, although that folk seemed to be not above a score; for he knew not what might be behind them; and they were hard on the baily of the said castle. But when they were come within half a bow-shot, and Osberne could see the banner that it bore two silver Fish addorsed on a blue ground, a herald pricked forth from the castle-folk, and when he drew nigh to Sir Godrick and his he said: "If I knew which were the captain of the riders I would give him the greeting of my lord, Sir Raynold Fisher of the Castle of the Fish." "Here then is the captain," said Sir Godrick; "what would Sir Raynold with him?"
"This," said the herald, "that whensoever my lord seeth the riding of any weaponed men over a half score by tale, they must tarry and joust with him, two of theirs against two of his, and must run with sharp spears of war till one side is overthrown or sorely hurt. This is the custom of the Castle of the Fish, and hath been these hundred years. Wherefore now declare thy name, Sir Knight."
"This is an evil custom," said Sir Godrick, "and sorts but little with mine errand, for I have overmuch bitter earnest on hand to play at battle. But since thy lord besetteth the way I must needs defend myself against him, as I would against any other ruffler or strong-thief. Go tell him that the Knight of the Weary-Strife will come presently with a good man of his and deliver him of his jousts." And Sir Godrick was very wroth.
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Maybe he has them fitted with blinkers, or wears some fancy eye-protection of his own?
