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Morale
Dec 24, 2018 22:52:44 GMT -6
Post by harlandski on Dec 24, 2018 22:52:44 GMT -6
Hello everyone, and Merry Christmas to those who celebrate it. I'd be surprised if this hadn't already been asked & answered here, but I couldn't find it by Googling. So my understanding of morale in OD&D is that it's referred to, but not explained in Men & Magic and Monsters & Treasure. So presumably we are supposed to use Chainmail. In Chainmail (which I have actually played a bit) as I understand it there are three different types of morale: 1. Post-combat morale - the algorithm on p. 15 2. Instability due to excess casualties on p. 17 3. Morale when charged by cavalry on p. 18 The monsters in Chainmail are also given morale ratings, which afaik is used in scenario 1. In OD&D monsters are not given morale ratings, but are given bonuses (e.g. Hobgoblins +1, Gnolls +2). So my questions are: - What type of morale rolls are assumed in OD&D for monsters?
- If we are supposed to use 1, how do we determine the morale ratings of monsters not included in Chainmail (by analogy? So Goblins and Orcs have MR 5, maybe Hobgoblins and Gnolls too? Or do we add the bonuses here to give 6 and 7?)
- If we are supposed to use 2 or 3, how do we determine monsters' troop type? I would guess hobgoblins and gnolls are heavy foot, but maybe they're more 'elite' than that?
- In the case of 2 or 3 I suppose the +1/+2 is added to the roll. Is this the case?
- As a related question, are player characters supposed to roll morale? I suppose if you use 1 then both sides need to.
I'd be interested to know people's own understandings of these rules, and even more so how this was done 'back in the day', or by people playing OD&D today. The impetus for this question came from me playing OD&D solo using the tables in The Strategic Review 1(1) and encountering some gnolls, who have now sustained casualties which would trigger 2.
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Morale
Dec 25, 2018 0:25:24 GMT -6
Post by delta on Dec 25, 2018 0:25:24 GMT -6
I think that's a good question. To muddy the waters further, there's at least two more morale rules that might be relevant:
Chainmail Man-to-Man Combat (p. 26): Asserts that morale should be checked with "standard morale tables" when 33% of an army has been killed. This seems to imply the excess-casualties table (your item #2), in that it concerns only one force alone. Cavalry charges also get a unique rule for when they are triggered. There's a good argument that D&D combat should be using the man-to-man rules here.
D&D Reaction Table (Vol-1, p. 12-13): Text here says "Non-player characters and men-at-arms will have to make morale checks (using the above reaction table or "Chainmail") whenever a highly dangerous or un-nerving situation arises." So that explicitly gives at least two different options for assessing morale in D&D. (Personally I take the first option listed for simplicity, using the D&D reaction table, rolling 2d6 + HD and other modifiers, with success in the 9+ category. Not saying that's canonical.)
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Morale
Dec 25, 2018 0:45:58 GMT -6
Post by Deleted on Dec 25, 2018 0:45:58 GMT -6
As Gary played it, PCs never check morale.
Someplace, I think on one of the tables, troop type equivalents for dwarfs, orcs, etc, are given in CHAINMAIL.
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Morale
Dec 25, 2018 6:30:52 GMT -6
Post by rsdean on Dec 25, 2018 6:30:52 GMT -6
As Gary played it, PCs never check morale. Someplace, I think on one of the tables, troop type equivalents for dwarfs, orcs, etc, are given in CHAINMAIL. Page 43, the Fantasy Reference Table, I’d suppose... There are morale values in the troop deacriptions, but with some troops having numbers like 40, they would seem to belong to the post-melee caliclation sustem, rather than the 2d6 “instability due to excess casualties” roll.
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Post by harlandski on Dec 25, 2018 13:10:12 GMT -6
So I've done a bit more solo dungeoneering and decided to use Instability due to Excess Casualties (Chainmail p. 17) to check morale. This seems to make the most sense of the modifiers in the OD&D books (as you're adding to a 2d6 roll), and is also quick compared to the full post melee morale check (which is fine in mass battles but seems like overkill in a dungeon crawl, no pun intended). Thank you @gronanofsimmerya and rsdean for drawing my attention to the correlation between heavy foot, light foot etc and fantasy types made in Chainmail's Fantasy Reference table. Honestly I'd been winging it (e.g. I decided that goblins would be light foot for morale purposes), but I can see this is more or less borne out in the table.
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Morale
Dec 25, 2018 16:44:08 GMT -6
Post by howandwhy99 on Dec 25, 2018 16:44:08 GMT -6
1. Every creature in OD&D is a monster. Use all three instances. Or more if necessary, but be discrete in your rule creation.
2. AD&D determined Morale Ratings later, you can use those scores. Though it is a d20 roll. Otherwise you could extrapolate by probability.
3. This is another extrapolation. Based upon armor and weapon effectiveness of monsters defenses and offensive capability. I wouldn't apply them unless the monster specifically organizes into units by type.
4. That's my reading.
5. Players choose how to play according to their experience and understanding of the hidden game. It is up to each player to choose when to run. Magical fear effects can override this.
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Post by waysoftheearth on Dec 25, 2018 17:54:10 GMT -6
The mechanics of how to test morale (i.e., which dice to throw and what the result implies) is one thing. When to test morale is another thing. These types of discussion tend to focus on the first part e.g., whether morale should be tested with d20 (per AD&D), 2d6 (per BECMI/RC), or whatever else you like (maybe a single six-sided die with a 1-2 bad, 3-4 average, 5-6 good). And often seem to exclude the second part. A fellow gamer once commented (during a debate re: saving throws): ''If you're throwing to save, you're not playing it right''. That chance remark turned out to be a piece of "practical wisdom" applicable to many gaming contexts. The point of it is: as a player, you can't control the outcome of a random throw, but you can often influence when the dice are thrown, so focus on what you can control. In the context of D&D morale: a way for D&D players to improve their "chances of success" is to cause the monsters to take morale tests as frequently as possible, while avoiding morale tests in their own forces. All of which is a very round about way of saying: how you test morale may be interesting, but it is probably not more important than when you test morale. This perspective would lead discussion more toward when morale should be tested, rather than how. The 3LBBs are reasonably circumspect on this, perhaps assuming that wargaming morale triggers would be generally known and should prevail? On that front CM suggests a number of morale test triggers including; the "LOSS TABLE" (2nd/3rd Ed p15/17), being charged by cavalry or a superhero, when peasants are attacked or ordered to attack, when the army commander is killed, etc. The AD&D PHB (p106) and DMG (p67) touch briefly on similar concepts for D&D. RC (p103) also has a list of circumstances when morale should be tested. Probably all these could be boiled down to a handful of guiding statements that would be pretty darn useful for OD&D refs
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Post by Deleted on Dec 25, 2018 18:36:16 GMT -6
I just used CHAINMAIL's "Morale Due To Excess Casualties" as a guideline.
Also, we used to look for "special" types; leaders, shamans, etc. Nailing a leader is a good way to force a morale check too.
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Morale
Dec 25, 2018 19:00:54 GMT -6
Post by doublejig2 on Dec 25, 2018 19:00:54 GMT -6
The mechanics of how to test morale (i.e., which dice to throw and what the result implies) is one thing. When to test morale is another thing. These types of discussion tend to focus on the first part e.g., whether morale should be tested with d20 (per AD&D), 2d6 (per BECMI/RC), or whatever else you like (maybe a single six-sided die with a 1-2 bad, 3-4 average, 5-6 good). And often seem to exclude the second part. A fellow gamer once commented (during a debate re: saving throws): ''If you're throwing to save, you're not playing it right''. That chance remark turned out to be a piece of "practical wisdom" applicable to many gaming contexts. The point of it is: as a player, you can't control the outcome of a random throw, but you can often influence when the dice are thrown, so focus on what you can control. In the context of D&D morale: a way for D&D players to improve their "chances of success" is to cause the monsters to take morale tests as frequently as possible, while avoiding morale tests in their own forces.
All of which is a very round about way of saying: how you test morale may be interesting, but it is probably not more important than when you test morale. This perspective would lead discussion more toward when morale should be tested, rather than how. The 3LBBs are reasonably circumspect on this, perhaps assuming that wargaming morale triggers would be generally known and should prevail? On that front CM suggests a number of morale test triggers including; the "LOSS TABLE" (2nd/3rd Ed p15/17), being charged by cavalry or a superhero, when peasants are attacked or ordered to attack, when the army commander is killed, etc. The AD&D PHB (p106) and DMG (p67) touch briefly on similar concepts for D&D. RC (p103) also has a list of circumstances when morale should be tested. Probably all these could be boiled down to a handful of guiding statements that would be pretty darn useful for OD&D refs How to be a "game" player. Very cool! edit: fixed broken quotation
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Post by gemini476 on Dec 26, 2018 8:56:34 GMT -6
Another interesting twist to this is that there seem to have been two schools of thought about this at TSR as well, although perhaps the difference may simply lie in wanting to simplify things for the Basic game.
Basic takes the Instability Due to Excess Casualties route: a binary 2d6 roll against a target number determined by monster type, usually done when at 50% casualties but later versions of Basic expand it to apply towards dead leaders, ineffective attacks, use of magic, etc.
Advanced D&D, meanwhile, pulls a bit more from the Post-Melee Morale mechanics (with IDtEC triggers). 1E DMG p.67 has most of them, although there's also some extra in the henchmen section for determining whether or not they're willing to sell you out. To summarize: 1d100 vs. target number determined by hit dice, with various modifiers for situation. Morale failure is non-binary: Chainmail - AD&D 1E melee continues - succeeded on the morale check back X move, good order - fall back, fighting retreat 1 move - disengage-retreat rout 1½ move - flee in panic surrender - surrender
2E I'm unfamiliar with, but I believe it's more similar to Basic in this respect.
The simplest method is probably just to have a single morale check for the group or individual at 50% casualties/wounds, with difficulty determined by type or whatnot. The Post Melee Morale after every round (or turn, perhaps?) of melee doesn't really show up again after Chainmail (and slows down the game a fair bit, and doesn't scale well with typical dungeon numbers), so personally I wouldn't use it outside of mass combat.
For reference, here's the times Monsters & Treasures speaks of morale: p.6: Berserkers and Dervishes never check morale. Brigands are Bandits with +1 morale. p.7: Cavemen have -1 morale. Goblins and Kobolds get -1 from morale dice in daylight. Orcs do not check morale in their lair unless outnumbered 3 to 1. p.8: Hobgoblins are Goblins with +1 morale. Gnolls have +2 morale. p.9: Skeletons/Zombies never check morale. p.15: Purple Worms and Minotaurs ever check morale. p.32: a Potion of Heroism gives a normal man a hero's morale. p.37: the Drums of Panic force a morale throw, but there is also the note "(for morale throw use saving throw vs. magic)".
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Morale
Dec 26, 2018 10:09:55 GMT -6
Post by delta on Dec 26, 2018 10:09:55 GMT -6
AD&D determined Morale Ratings later, you can use those scores. Though it is a d20 roll. It's percentile-based in AD&D (DMG: henchmen p. 36, monsters p. 67).
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Morale
Dec 27, 2018 10:56:40 GMT -6
Post by tetramorph on Dec 27, 2018 10:56:40 GMT -6
A fellow gamer once commented (during a debate re: saving throws): ''If you're throwing to save, you're not playing it right''. That chance remark turned out to be a piece of "practical wisdom" applicable to many gaming contexts. The point of it is: as a player, you can't control the outcome of a random throw, but you can often influence when the dice are thrown, so focus on what you can control. In the context of D&D morale: a way for D&D players to improve their "chances of success" is to cause the monsters to take morale tests as frequently as possible, while avoiding morale tests in their own forces. Awesome. I got The Art of War for Christmas and I have been reading it. This is almost an art-of-war-style aphorism for D&D play. Fight on!
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Morale
Dec 27, 2018 14:16:41 GMT -6
Post by harlandski on Dec 27, 2018 14:16:41 GMT -6
Another interesting twist to this is that there seem to have been two schools of thought about this at TSR as well, although perhaps the difference may simply lie in wanting to simplify things for the Basic game. Basic takes the Instability Due to Excess Casualties route: a binary 2d6 roll against a target number determined by monster type, usually done when at 50% casualties but later versions of Basic expand it to apply towards dead leaders, ineffective attacks, use of magic, etc. Advanced D&D, meanwhile, pulls a bit more from the Post-Melee Morale mechanics (with IDtEC triggers). 1E DMG p.67 has most of them, although there's also some extra in the henchmen section for determining whether or not they're willing to sell you out. To summarize: 1d100 vs. target number determined by hit dice, with various modifiers for situation. Morale failure is non-binary: Chainmail - AD&D 1Emelee continues - succeeded on the morale check back X move, good order - fall back, fighting retreat 1 move - disengage-retreat rout 1½ move - flee in panic surrender - surrender 2E I'm unfamiliar with, but I believe it's more similar to Basic in this respect. The simplest method is probably just to have a single morale check for the group or individual at 50% casualties/wounds, with difficulty determined by type or whatnot. The Post Melee Morale after every round (or turn, perhaps?) of melee doesn't really show up again after Chainmail (and slows down the game a fair bit, and doesn't scale well with typical dungeon numbers), so personally I wouldn't use it outside of mass combat. For reference, here's the times Monsters & Treasures speaks of morale: p.6: Berserkers and Dervishes never check morale. Brigands are Bandits with +1 morale. p.7: Cavemen have -1 morale. Goblins and Kobolds get -1 from morale dice in daylight. Orcs do not check morale in their lair unless outnumbered 3 to 1. p.8: Hobgoblins are Goblins with +1 morale. Gnolls have +2 morale. p.9: Skeletons/Zombies never check morale. p.15: Purple Worms and Minotaurs ever check morale. p.32: a Potion of Heroism gives a normal man a hero's morale. p.37: the Drums of Panic force a morale throw, but there is also the note "(for morale throw use saving throw vs. magic)". You've highlighted some interesting things here thank you, both in terms of where things went in later versions of D&D, and by gathering together all the references in M&T. I've encountered several of them 'live' - have already been up against berserkers, gnolls, a skeleton and some zombies. I agree that Instability Due to Excess Casualties is the best fit, it just requires some interpretation in terms of fantasy types. I've been using it, it's worked well, and it's helped to make combat a little less deadly. The Drums of Panic note is both vexing (as it points in a completely different direction) and enlightening (as it supports my developing feeling that wargamers at the time were quite flexible about which table/system they would use for a given function, and would go for best fit rather than one size fits all.)
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Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2018 14:30:24 GMT -6
"Best fit rather than one size fits all" is exactly the case.
Which is why "universal resolution mechanics" are such an utter non-idea for us old timers.
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Post by rustic313 on Dec 27, 2018 21:07:57 GMT -6
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Morale
Jan 1, 2019 14:20:37 GMT -6
Post by harlandski on Jan 1, 2019 14:20:37 GMT -6
Thanks for this, so to summarize what I learned from it: - Some people use the non-player character reaction table from Men & Magic for morale.
- Some people use a more freeform 2d6 approach. (The higher the modified roll, the better the morale.)
- Loyalty is also a thing which influences morale, though it is strictly speaking a separate thing.
I'm still happy with the Chainmail Instability due to Excess Casualties table and rules at the moment, though it also requires some interpretation to encompass the fantasy types not mentioned in Chainmail (and even those which are if they have different types for attack and defence in the Fantasy Reference Table). I actually really like the rule that troops with weaker base morale will never fight to the last man if they have the choice - seems plausible.
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Morale
Jan 9, 2019 12:01:40 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by harlandski on Jan 9, 2019 12:01:40 GMT -6
As Gary played it, PCs never check morale. Someplace, I think on one of the tables, troop type equivalents for dwarfs, orcs, etc, are given in CHAINMAIL. Page 43, the Fantasy Reference Table, I’d suppose... There are morale values in the troop deacriptions, but with some troops having numbers like 40, they would seem to belong to the post-melee caliclation sustem, rather than the 2d6 “instability due to excess casualties” roll. Ok I've figured this out now. The problem with the Fantasy Reference table for morale is that it says, for example, that goblins attack as heavy foot, but defend as light foot, so it's an open question which of these they are for morale purposes. You're right that the morale ratings in the monster descriptions in Chainmail relate to the Post Melee Morale system. But in those very rules there is a table with troop types and their morale ratings. So to determine the troop types of monsters, you just have to do a reverse lookup in this table. For example both goblins and orcs have a morale rating of 5. This corresponds to Heavy Foot, so on the Instability due to Excess Casualties table they can just use the Heavy Foot entry (Casualty % 33 1/3, Score to remain 7 or better). Of course that still leaves the question of what to do with M&T monsters not in Chainmail, but it gives a much firmer base for analogy. The huge morale scores in Chainmail are also off the scale - probably never check for morale out of mass battle?
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