Notes on Greyhawk dungeon level 1 map design

[Red Baron]

I copied out the map of greyhawk level 1 (as seen here or here) with a pencil and graph paper to take notes on how the level was designed.

The map in question:



It looks like Gary has a "grid network" pattern of hallways surrounding room complexes. 




His next step is to double up some corridors, and block some off with dead ends at various points.




Some room complexes are just stacks of 20x20 or 20x30 rooms. Others are more complex and have interesting interconnectivity within. I like room complexes because they offer opportunities for related rooms  (a troll, his human slaves, a magic cauldron, a secret room with a riddle the troll doesnt know about - boom that tells a story), and because they provide "zones of control" for monsters where a monster can own a room complex. 



Finally, room complexes can act as self contained nodes that can be avoided, or as choke points to get between the corridors surrounding them. This gives an interesting dynamic where a tough monster/trap placed in a node can be avoided, whereas a tough monster/trap placed in a choke point can be a pain in the butt for players. Stick a huge yellow mold at a choke point and they players will have to come back will some oil before they can progress.



In total, this leads to interesting exploration play, as the players will end up with maps that meander and show only part of the level even though its packed with "paper thin walls" and little/no "grey space". You can run different groups through and have a totally different path followed each time.



It also means that there are lots of 50-100' corridors throughout the map, despite it being a "no blank space" map - cool!

(Hopefully those drawings did an adequate job at conveying the ideas, if not just try to figure it out on the map up top!)

[scottenkainen]

Good analysis!

[grodog]

Sept 26, 2018 10:08:49 GMT -6 Red Baron said:

I copied out the map of greyhawk level 1 (as seen here or here) with a pencil and graph paper to take notes on how the level was designed.

Excellent analysis! Would you please scan and share your graphed-out map? I started a similar project awhile ago, but never quite completed it

Allan.

[Zenopus]

Yup, great job Red Baron !

It's also worth comparing with his "Dungeon Delving" level from the Hall of Many Panes, which brought back some of the features you note (e.g. room complexes, double-up corridors, dead ends):
Gygax's Dungeon Level from the Hall of Many Panes
Gygax's "Dungeon Delving" Playtest Reports

And the game reports of this level from the games run by stormberg at Gary Con, which I compiled in a thread here:
Snippet of First Level of Greyhawk 1976

Thread on K&KA has a lot of fruitful discussion of this map, including attempts to work out the one-page key that was on the facing page:
Gygax Castle Greyhawk Map

Gary's own play reports running the dungeon at home in 2004:
Gary's Current Greyhawk Game

[Melan]

Well written! That's a useful way to look at the way this level worked (and people who have played with Gary at conventions have produced exactly the same kind of maps of this specific level).

[rossik]

thats a great topic!

[clownboss]

Fantastic disclosure of the thought process Gary had making these. I sure do wish there were proper scans of all of his old Grayhawk maps, though.

From what I've gathered, it seems all of these dungeon levels are based in a mesh of 38 x 51 squares, making a kind of "outer border" for the levels. Just a note.

Also is it me or are some rooms repeated in the contents/monsters they have? Because I see many rooms have identical numbers assigned to them.

[hamurai]

Good observation!
This reminds me of the HeroQuest board...

[grodog]

Sept 28, 2018 4:19:56 GMT -6 clownboss said:

Fantastic disclosure of the thought process Gary had making these. I sure do wish there were proper scans of all of his old Grayhawk maps, though.

Agreed, that would be nice. One day I'm hopeful that we'll see the full and Expanded Castle's details, but I'm not holding my breath. That said, if you haven't checked out the various levels detailed in Rob Kuntz's El Raja Key Archive, you should. I blogged about it last summer: grodog.blogspot.com/2017/07/the-many-levels-of-castle-greyhawk-part-1.html

Sept 28, 2018 4:19:56 GMT -6 clownboss said:

From what I've gathered, it seems all of these dungeon levels are based in a mesh of 38 x 51 squares, making a kind of "outer border" for the levels. Just a note.

Most of Gary's Castle Greyhawk levels were drawn on 6 spi graph paper, which is why our Black Blade pads have 6 spi grids on the top sides of the sheets, and 5 spi grids on the bottom sides (5 spi is generally my favorite grid-size for dungeon levels). 6 spi nets you 51x66 squares per sheet (and 5 spi yields ~42.5x55 squares per sheet).

Sept 28, 2018 4:19:56 GMT -6 clownboss said:

Also is it me or are some rooms repeated in the contents/monsters they have? Because I see many rooms have identical numbers assigned to them.

Yes, the key #s (and the key page) do show a repeated presence of the same monster on the level in several cases.

Allan.

[scottyg]

The repeating monster entries are part of Gary’s DMing style. He’d Set a few special, encounters on each level, and he’d wing most of the rest. In his mind he knew a certain area was where the orcs were, for example, but he didn’t set the numbers/treasure in advance. He’d populate it on the fly based on the PC/PCs adventuring.

[clownboss]

Yep, Grodog, I've seen that page before. Fantastic job on that

[Red Baron]

@gronanofsimmerya

There are many "doors" on the map indicated by a black dot. Do you know if these are how Gary represented doors, or are these something else (archways?)

[Stormcrow]

I don't know about Gary, but I always use a dot in a door to indicate that it's locked.

[Zenopus]

Due to the quality of the image, I'm not sure we can conclude which "dots" are specifically marked doors versus more heavily drawn ones. Some even appear to be more darkly written secret doors. Some "dots" could be doors that were changed and written in a darker pencil or pen.

[Zenopus]

Sept 29, 2018 10:30:57 GMT -6 grodog said:

Sept 28, 2018 4:19:56 GMT -6 clownboss said:

Also is it me or are some rooms repeated in the contents/monsters they have? Because I see many rooms have identical numbers assigned to them.

Yes, the key #s (and the key page) do show a repeated presence of the same monster on the level in several cases.

I believe in some instances the repeating numbers are meant to indicate a room complex controlled by one group of monsters.
In the K&KA thread I linked above, foster1941 pegs the number 1s at the center left as the lair Old Guard Kobolds.

[Red Baron]

Sept 30, 2018 14:59:36 GMT -6 Zenopus said:

Sept 29, 2018 10:30:57 GMT -6 grodog said:

Yes, the key #s (and the key page) do show a repeated presence of the same monster on the level in several cases.

I believe in some instances the repeating numbers are meant to indicate a room complex controlled by one group of monsters.
In the K&KA thread I linked above, foster1941 pegs the number 1s at the center left as the lair Old Guard Kobolds.

Are these rooms not the following?

Oct 12, 2016 23:32:34 GMT -6 Zenopus said:

*Complex of three adjoining rooms: One with "humans giving orders to a goblin", another with four warrior reinforcements (16 GP, pinkie ring w/skull), and the third with an ogre (ermine belt, leather pouch with two small pearls), a "smelly but valuable" bed (no exact value given) and a chest with two sacks of coins (287 SP, 186 GP)

[Zenopus]

Good question. I believe Foster based his presumption of the OGK being in those rooms based on a comment Gary made during the EnWorld game where he ran it (see page 2 of the K&KA thread). This, the "binder" version, is what Gary was running at cons in the 2000s but is not necessarily the same key as he used back in the '70s.

The other material is from the version that Paul has been running. The map appears to be the same (or very close) as the one from the "binder", but the keys are not necessarily the same. Paul's version is from a ~1976 handout for a demo game at Origins; the key there may not even be the same as what Gary was actually running at home in the '70s. He may have prepared a special writeup for the con. Also, I don't know if Paul has changed/added material, since I haven't seen the actual key.

[Zenopus]

It looks like the linked image of the key has disappeared from that K&KA thread. I'll post it here in case anyone wants to try to work on deciphering key.
The map that this goes with is the one shown in the first post of this thread.

Original size ---


Blown-up 2x ---



These are the image unaltered except for rotating/cropping. It's possible changing the contrast etc may make the words more decipherable to some eyes.

Update: And here is the original photo of Gygax & his binder, hosted on grodog's site, from which both the map and the key are taken.

[Zenopus]

Here's what I tentatively have for the key. Based originally on the K&KA work here --- knights-n-knaves.com/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?p=119561#p119561


1. 4-16 Kobolds(?) ... ... ... ..... ..... ...
2. 2-? Goblins .. .. .
3. 3-? GIANT RATS - no treasure (a .... .
4. ?-? ..... ..... ..... +1 shield ...
5. ?-? Em. ...... ... -
6. ?-? HOBGOBLINS Battle axe +1, gems 200
7. 1 ... .... ..... ..........
8. --- ... .... Empty - ..... ......, ..... ...
9. 2-8 ORCs - chest with 5 flasks oil 2.24 . 9 .
10. ? WELL D...... - drink!
11. 1 CONSTRICTOR(?) - Gems inside (. .. ..
12.    R....... CORRIDOR - no bats
13. ?-? SKELETONS (.. . ....) - 1 piece of jewelry [ I can only make out an "NS" but should be Skeleton based on Enworld game ]
14. .?-? ..BATS - no treasure R.... ..
15. 1 ... .... .... - 2 ....... - nothing/ . . [ Should be Giant Stink Bug - Bombardier ]
16. 2 .......... ... .... .. .....each .... ...
17. 1 Black Widow Spider - +1 dagger, ....
18. 1 PRIEST +1 Gnoll(?) Gd Cast at

I'll update this if anyone has further insights

[grodog]

I think I have a better image to work from, let me take a look Zenopus.

Allan.

[grodog]

Oct 2, 2018 13:18:14 GMT -6 grodog said:

I think I have a better image to work from, let me take a look Zenopus .

OK, here we go:

Map opposite labelled with “The Vaults” at the top

1.   9-16 Kobolds – dust covered odoor [??] pliers [??] + 750 cp
2.   7-12 Goblins – 10 gp /
3.   3-8 Giant Rats – no treasure (in room potion strength)
4.   10-16 Bandits, Leader Warrior - +1 shield, potion und. ctrl., 1,000 gp [pp?]
5. 5-8 Giant Centipede Nest –
6. 2-3 Hobgoblins – battle axe +1, gem 200-800 gp
7. 1 [?] Giant Black Widow / Skeleton in Plate Ar – 50 gp on floor
8.   – Iron Chest, Empty, fake bottom [?], needle trap, c 200 ea
9. 3-7 Orcs - chest with 8 flasks oil, 30 cp [sp?] + 8 gp /
10. – Water Seepage – drink!
11. 1 [?] Giant Constrictor – gems inside (1-4) or nothing [?? notes tag?] 5 g/
[starting with “or…” = possible palimpsest text]
12. – Rustling Corridor – no bats
13. 2-5 Skeletons (pile of bones) – 1 piece of jewelry [in pile?] (d10 x 300)
14. 1-2 Giant Rats – no treasure – Rustling – [?? perhaps line above continues??]
15. 1 Giant Stone Pearl [Portal??] – 2 attack in 6’ r. – nothing/10-100 cp + 1-12 sp
16. 3 Berserkers – R. of Prot., 21-40 gp each, Idol with curse (-1/+3/d in [??])
17. 1 Seer ([chaotic??]) – Light, Ch. Per. – +1 dagger, spell  books, 1-20 gp
18. 1 Evil Adept + 1 Spell Gd [??] Cause Lt. Wound. – staff of healing (6 [?] chg)

X-circle Pit – 10’ deep – trap [n.b.:  X-circle symbol is in red pencil]
O-cirlce Tranporter [n.b.:  O symbol is a filled-in circle in green pencil]


I have some notes from discussions with Rob that this sheet was one of his original keys but was rewritten in Gary's handwriting. I'll dig those up sooner vs. later, if I can find them.

Allan.

[Zenopus]

Here's my stab at it, working from Allan's transcription as a base. I tried to retain Gary's mixed cases, and made a few other corrections ---

LEVEL 1

1. 9-16 KOBOLDS – dust covered silver mirror 750 CP[?]
2. 7-12 GOBLINS – 10 GP /
3. 3-12 GIANT RATS – no treasure (in room potion strength)
4. 10-16 BANDITS, LEADER WARRIOR - +1 shield, potion und. cont., 1,000 GP[?]
5. 5-8 GIANT CENTIPEDE NEST –
6. 2-3 HOBGOBLINS – Battle axe +1, gem 200-800 GP
7. 1 GIANT BLACK WIDOW / SKELETON IN PLATE AR – 50 GP on floor
8. – IRON[?] CHEST, EMPTY - false bottom[?], needle trap, 6 gems c 200 ea
9. 3-7 ORCS - chest with 8 flasks oil, 30 SP + 8 GP /
10. – WATER SEEPAGE – drink!
11. 1 GIANT CONSTRICTOR – Gems inside (1-4) or nothing 50/50[?]
12. – RUSTLING CORRIDOR – no bats
13. 2-5 SKELETONS (pile of bones) – 1 piece of jewelry [in pile?] (d10 x 300)
14. 1-2 GIANT BATS – no treasure – RUSTLING   [more text unreadable, may continue line above]
15. 1 GIANT STINK BEETLE – 2 attack in 5’ r. – nothing/10-100 SP + 1-10 GP
16. 3 BERSERKERS – R. of Prot., 20-40 GP each, Idol with curse (-1/[+3?]/[d in or dia?])
17. 1 SEER (Chaotic) – LIGHT, CH.PER. – +1 dagger, spell books, 1-20 GP
18. 1 EVIL ADEPT + 1 GNOLL Gd  CAUSE LT. WOUND.  – staff of healing (6 [?] chg)

[red ink circle with an X] PIT – 10’ deep – TRAP
[circle filled with yellow] TRANSPORTER

[howandwhy99]

This takes me back a few years. Does anyone have Paul's notes on Gary's key or is it still shelved with everything else?

Also, I'd love to know what walls were under those light glares in the original photo.

[Red Baron]

Well, here's the best I can do for now. I'll try to figure out the other doors when I have time. The red circles designate areas not visible on the original image I was working from.

Edit: I count ~160 areas that could be keyed

[delta]

Dredging this top-notch resource once again. I don't suppose anyone has tried to expand the above work with the other doors, room numbers, etc.?

[asaki]

I could take a stab at it, if there was a (free) program to make it easier. Especially if it allowed sharing source files, so we could collaborate.

Apologies to whoever made these, I can't find the source, but they got pretty far into it:





I think the room numbers were added for their own reference, and don't reflect Gary's key.

[delta]

Jan 4, 2020 0:50:53 GMT -6 asaki said:

I think the room numbers were added for their own reference, and don't reflect Gary's key.

Interesting, thanks for that! The room numbers are certainly very different from Gary's key (in which the vast majority of rooms are unkeyed, and the key only goes 1-18).

[SebastianDM]

Jan 4, 2020 0:50:53 GMT -6 asaki said:

I could take a stab at it, if there was a (free) program to make it easier. Especially if it allowed sharing source files, so we could collaborate.

Apologies to whoever made these, I can't find the source, but they got pretty far into it:


I think the room numbers were added for their own reference, and don't reflect Gary's key.

I went ahead and redrew it in Inkscape. It is free and very great for mapping since it works with vectors instead of pixels so you can export it to a pdf or a clear image in whatever size you want.

I also think I was able to make a version of the original image that is a little bit clearer than the one usually passed around.

The light red spots are where no information could be seen in the image.

I mapped doors pretty much every time i thought the wall looked thicker as this seems to be Gygax style.

The "K"s are where I think there is a number for the key but could not discern the number.

Two things that surprised me was that pit traps (or something rectangular in the middle of the hallways) seems to be clearly mapped and second, that Gygax seem to have used red on some specific doors. I assume this is to signify that the door is trapped. Since I had to remove some of the red color from the top right of the image to better see it, I could not discern any red doors in that part of the image.

The source .svg file can be found here if you have more to add to it or want to export it in another size.

EDIT: I have updated both the svg and picture below with the information from Zenopus

[Zenopus]

Nice work!

That rectangle at the top (which you filled with squares) is actually filled with two lines of writing, presumably the title of the map. I think it begins "THE VAULTS..." but I'm not sure. It may also be a room (unclear).

It's actually easier to read on unprocessed & smaller scaled image of the map. Also, Allan has the original photo hosted on his site, you may want to take a look if you haven't already. The processed photos above are sourced from this.

There's a diagonal corridor in the northwest, just north of where you put a square in the corridor.

[Zenopus]

Here are a few notes on the Key that I posted in the K&KA thread back when Allan deciphered it. They may help with some of the mapping:

---Giant Black Widow (#7) should be in the spiral stairs at the center of the map. Per Rhuvein's 1/15/08 play report, "Gary briefly described the castle ruins and broken walls and outline, and then we immediately descended down spiral stairs into the dungeon. We get almost at the bottom of the stairs - about to walk into a room, when a large spider drops down from the ceiling and bites the lead PC. He fails his check and dies of poison!!!". The treasure: "we found a rotted backpack from some corpse that fell out of the web and picked up our first loot - 50sp". Gary's 9/24/04 play report on the gygax-games list also mentions "a big black widow spider".

---Giant Bats (#14) are mentioned in Gary's play reports on gygax-games, 9/24/04 ("some giant bats") and 10/21/04 ("After slaying many vicious cave bats"). Rhuvein's 1/15/08 play report also mentions "At one point we heard the whispers of what we thought might have been leathery wings or something. We attempted to locate the source and checking to see if we were being followed, but could find out nothing." This is presumably #12. On the map I can see a #12 near the #1s (Kobolds) and a #14 in the long corridor along the bottom edge of the map. Some of the other room #s may be #14s, but it's hard to tell.

---Giant Stink Beetle (#15), 9/24/04 ("a big stink bug") and 10/28/04 ("met and slew ... a giant stink beetle"). The Enworld crew also met this, #2 on the annotated map of their game ("Foul-Smelling Beetle") posted earlier in this thread.

---Evil Adept (#18), Rhuvein 1/15/08 reported that "we did battle a gnoll and an evil cleric (thanks to Dan for reminding me) and were able to overcome their attacks and picked up a staff of healing." Also, they got "20 xp from 1 gnoll" and "30 xp for the evil cleric". Also, Gary reported on 10/28/04, the party "met and slew ... and an evil priest and his two gnoll guards". In this report he also mentions that among the treasure acquired was "a staff showing two intertwined snakes along its length", which was presumably the staff of healing, with Gary using a caduceus to give a hint of the staff's properties. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caduceus