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Post by tetramorph on Aug 19, 2018 7:16:40 GMT -6
Do any of you allow for reverse spells for magic-users in your campaigns?
If so, which ones? How do you describe them? Do you have alignment ramifications? If so what?
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Post by Finarvyn on Aug 19, 2018 7:27:30 GMT -6
Mind blown. No, I haven't done it but what a great concept. I mean, clerics have reversed spells so why not the Magic-user? I guess some spells do this already (sort of) like Light and Darkness. Hold Portal or Wizard Lock and Knock. Slow and Haste. No reason why there couldn't be more, however!  Off the top of my head, how about these: * Levitate (drop; could be neat to cast on a dragon) * Detect magic (hide magic) Do you have any particular ones in mind? |
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Post by tetramorph on Aug 19, 2018 8:58:14 GMT -6
I think some of the MU spells are already reverses of each othe, but not stated as such.
The key things've been thinking about are:
If you have reversed spells, then knowing one is knowing both. So if you discover or research haste, then you now also know slow. That would be pretty cool.
Also, not with all, but with some, it seems to me there should be something similar to clerical alignment penalties. I started thinking about this when I was thinking about Magic Jar in another thread. It seems to me that magic jar should move you one alignment closer to chaos every time you use it. So, I started thinking, what might be a lawful reverse of that spell? The best thing I've imagined so far is "soul link." In this spell, the subjects are willing. They can switch souls with each other when they both want to, and likewise switch back. If one is killed he/she regenerates out of the other in one day. Not as dark a spell because both subjects are willing.
Here are some spells that already have the (rough) equivalent of their reverse (this is not exhaustive, but off the cuff):
Detect invisible/invisibility
Wizard Lock/Knock
Slow/Haste
Polymorph self/others (kind of)
Rock-to-mud/Mud-to-rock (isn't that mentioned?)
Stone-to-flesh/Flesh-to-stone (explicitly mentioned)
Reincarnation/Death
A lot of spells are higher-powered versions of lower cousins. I wonder if you could render it that these were less expensive to research if you knew their lower cousins as you reached higher levels?
Here are some spells that could be the potentially interesting reverse of current spells:
Conceal magic (maybe too "game breaking")
Write Magic (I presume they can already do this for making spell books and scrolls)
Darkness
Conceal evil (again, maybe "game breaking")
Continual darkness
Curse
Diminution of Plant
Dispel Elemental (or "Sending")
Release undeath
"Soul Link" (my ideas about reversing Magic Jar)
Contact Infernal Depth
Breathe Poison
Empower mind
Diminution of animals
Raise water
Which ones are too "game breaking"? Which ones could/should have ramifications/limitations on/due to alignment?
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Post by Zenopus on Aug 19, 2018 9:45:40 GMT -6
Warlock has an Awaken spell, the reverse of Sleep, although it is second level for unclear reasons.
AD&D has reverse spells for many MU spells, so that's also a good source for ideas.
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Post by delta on Aug 19, 2018 11:45:03 GMT -6
I think there are precisely two magic-user spells in Vol-1 that mention reversibility: transmute rock to mud and stone to flesh. They seem like such outliers I personally go in the other direction: Absolutely no on-the-fly reverses. If you want a spell to do the opposite, just saying the words backwards doesn't do it; you need to find or research a new, separate spell.
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Post by tetramorph on Aug 19, 2018 14:21:14 GMT -6
I think there are precisely two magic-user spells in Vol-1 that mention reversibility: transmute rock to mud and stone to flesh. They seem like such outliers I personally go in the other direction: Absolutely no on-the-fly reverses. If you want a spell to do the opposite, just saying the words backwards doesn't do it; you need to find or research a new, separate spell. Okay, I dig. Why so strict? (I'm not against your point, I just want to learn. I may allow spell reversal and if this is a dumb move I want to know it and not do it before I mess up the game.) |
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Post by rustic313 on Aug 19, 2018 15:52:54 GMT -6
I think there are precisely two magic-user spells in Vol-1 that mention reversibility: transmute rock to mud and stone to flesh. They seem like such outliers I personally go in the other direction: Absolutely no on-the-fly reverses. If you want a spell to do the opposite, just saying the words backwards doesn't do it; you need to find or research a new, separate spell. If that is in reference to my post? A small point of order: only clerics cast reversed spells “on the fly.” Magic users have to learn it reversed or standard. Once learned it has to be either cast that way or not at all. Of course, I have someone who wants to run it that way? I’m OK with that, too. I’m a big believer in running the game in your way. Wut? Clerics can spontaneously reverse spells? So a memorized "light" can become "dark," or a "cure light wounds" can become an "inflict?" Where is this discussed/implied? I've never played that way but could very well have missed something... |
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Post by delta on Aug 19, 2018 16:52:42 GMT -6
I think there are precisely two magic-user spells in Vol-1 that mention reversibility: transmute rock to mud and stone to flesh. They seem like such outliers I personally go in the other direction: Absolutely no on-the-fly reverses. If you want a spell to do the opposite, just saying the words backwards doesn't do it; you need to find or research a new, separate spell. If that is in reference to my post? A small point of order: only clerics cast reversed spells “on the fly.” Magic users have to learn it reversed or standard. Once learned it has to be either cast that way or not at all. Of course, I have someone who wants to run it that way? I’m OK with that, too. I’m a big believer in running the game in your way. My post was not in regards to yours. Agreed that's what the AD&D PHB says. But that's not how I read the OD&D text. E.g. under Transmute Rock to Mud: "The spell can only be countered by reversing the incantation (requiring a Transmute Rock to Mud spell)". |
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Post by delta on Aug 19, 2018 17:01:18 GMT -6
Thanks for asking. (1) Personally I tend to just not like systemic outliers. As-is you've got 68 non-reversible magic-user spells in the core, and 2 that are reversible, so that feels like a flaw to me. (2) Counter-indicators include things like wall of fire and wall of ice being separate spells, haste and slow, light and darkness (different levels, even). It feels like introducing willy-nilly reversibility would be a big systemic change. (3) My conception of spells as a Vancian/de Campian mathematical/logical formula leads me to think you can't just say it in reverse or say it differently for a productive effect (i.e., say a mathematical equation in reverse and it's just nonsense). (4) I prefer having reasons to create more spells and scrolls in the game with specific effects, rather than less. That's where I'm at. Plus I just tend to have a brutalist game profile (per a player last Friday), so it's in my wheelhouse like that. :-) |
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Post by aldarron on Sept 16, 2018 11:22:20 GMT -6
If that is in reference to my post? A small point of order: only clerics cast reversed spells “on the fly.” Magic users have to learn it reversed or standard. Once learned it has to be either cast that way or not at all. Of course, I have someone who wants to run it that way? I’m OK with that, too. I’m a big believer in running the game in your way. Wut? Clerics can spontaneously reverse spells? So a memorized "light" can become "dark," or a "cure light wounds" can become an "inflict?" Where is this discussed/implied? I've never played that way but could very well have missed something... That's correct properly speaking. Only clerics cast reversed spells. Actually, only Chaotic clerics cast reversed spells BTB., and they can do it on the fly, of course. The ambiguity lies in whether chaotic clerics can cast the spell normally or only reversed. I let them do both because they cant turn undead, but I think Gronan doesn't. Magic users have lots of spells that have opposite but separate spells (haste/slow for ex), but "reversing" a spell for Mu's is actually casting a counterspell, by chanting a known spell backwards. This is made pretty clear in the text of the Transmute Rock to Mud spell. "The spell can only be countered by reversing the incantation (requiring a Transmute Rock to Mud spell)" So to reverse a fireball spell being cast at the party, for ex, the Mu would have to also have fireball memorized and chant the incantation backwards. More on this in my Book of Elder Magic.  |
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