level drains possibly temporary?

[geoffrey]

Is there anything in the 1974 rules that makes it clear how long level drains (from wights, wraiths, spectres, and vampires) last? Of course, in AD&D the level drains are "permanent" in the sense that the passage of time will not restore levels. Only acquisition of experience points will "restore" lost levels.

But is there anything in the 1974 rules that would prevent a new DM from thinking, "Hmm. It doesn't say how long the levels are gone. I guess I'll just have them return at the same rate as lost hit points"?

[sixdemonbag]

The rules do say that XP will be required to gain levels back, but no timeframe is mentioned for this to happen. Fellow party members could funnel treasure to the drained PC to speed things up.

This assumes you are trying to keep things BtB. Otherwise, 1 week per level drained being restored or some such could work. Also, Wishes.

[Deleted]

Originally level drain was short term. Then Gary changed it to be permanent.

As Sixdemonbag said, the text is pretty clear on this.

[delta]

Just to be clear (because it's easy to miss it), the OD&D rule is in Vol-3, p. 35, under "Healing Wounds":

As noted previously, energy levels can only be regained by fresh experience, but common wounds can be healed with the passage of time...

[geoffrey]

Mar 1, 2018 13:31:32 GMT -6 delta said:

Just to be clear (because it's easy to miss it), the OD&D rule is in Vol-3, p. 35, under "Healing Wounds":

As noted previously, energy levels can only be regained by fresh experience, but common wounds can be healed with the passage of time...

Ah, thank you for the reference!

[tetramorph]

geoffrey, I like the way talysman interprets it. Something like this:

Life-energy (not level) drain causes you to function at the lower level, but does not affect XP accrued.

Upon gaining any additional, new XP, one level is restored.

So, for each level lost (mechanic) as part of life-energy drain (in game world) it takes another new accrual of XP to regain it.

Example:

Level 4 Hero 8K XP

Life-energy drained by a vampire: functions as a level-2 FM.
Somehow makes it back alive. Accrues 1K XP from treasure and kills.
Now functions as level 3 FM.
Heads back to dungeon. Accrues another 1K XP from treasures and kills.
Now restored to full function as Hero.

If you have accrued enough to level, you still have to make up for the lost levels before you get to enjoy the full benefits your XP gives.

Sorry, that was long-winded. It is really simple but hard to explain succinctly (if you are me).

Fight on!

[Zenopus]

One interesting tidbit regarding energy levels, also on page 35 of Vol 3, but in the section on monsters for NAVAL ADVENTURES, is that Giant Leeches drain "one life energy level" every two turns they are attached. This concept of level drain by blood loss was removed from the Giant Leech entry in the MM, replaced by a more conventional HP loss per round.

Artifacts touched by those of the wrong alignment can immediately drain a whopping Four or Six Energy Levels, see pg 39 of Vol 2. In the DMG this appears to have morphed into losing a single level and is now subject to a save vs. magic.

If one wishes to stay entirely within the rules, but make energy loss temporary, simply add a new spell to the Cleric and/or MU lists similar to the AD&D Restoration spell. That spell is 7th level, requiring a 16th level cleric, and comes with the dreaded aging limitation (2 years), but why not make it a lower level spell in OD&D? Being dead is essentially equivalent to losing ALL energy levels, so it makes sense in that Clerics who can raise dead (5th level spell) could also restore energy levels at a lower level.

For OD&D, we could call it Restore Energy Level, and perhaps make it a 3rd level Cleric spell (castable at 6th level) as the first undead with energy level drain is the 3 HD Wight. This would make the Energy Levels more like a resource to be managed like Hit Points. It could be researched but could also be introduced to a campaign by an NPC or on a scroll, etc. Of course it would be reversible (Drain Energy Level) for Anti-Clerics...

Another idea would be Potion of Energy, restoring a single level when quaffed.

Or a new monster, the Reinvigorating Spirit, sort of a reverse undead that restores energy levels.

[talysman]

Mar 1, 2018 16:41:02 GMT -6 tetramorph said:

geoffrey, I like the way talysman interprets it. Something like this:

Life-energy (not level) drain causes you to function at the lower level, but does not affect XP accrued.

Upon gaining any additional, new XP, one level is restored.

So, for each level lost (mechanic) as part of life-energy drain (in game world) it takes another new accrual of XP to regain it.

Thanks for the shout-out!

I'll just note that I evolved the idea from something in AD&D regarding gaining new levels. You can't go up by more than one level per adventure; AD&D has your XP capped at 1 point short of the next level. So, you go up 1 level, then you have to go on some kind of adventure, even a tiny one, like "exterminate the rats in the tavern's basement," and earn 1 XP.

I decided it's easier to partially dissociate XP from level. Having 4000 XP as a fighter doesn't mean you are 3rd level, it means you could be 3rd level. You can earn as much XP as you want on an adventure, and never lose XP, but you can only go up 1 level per adventure. Easy rule to follow, and eliminates some fiddly management problems. And, as a result, it's easy to recover levels lost due to level drain.

Mar 1, 2018 10:56:32 GMT -6 geoffrey said:

But is there anything in the 1974 rules that would prevent a new DM from thinking, "Hmm. It doesn't say how long the levels are gone. I guess I'll just have them return at the same rate as lost hit points"?

The rules, as noted by others, do say levels aren't restored by rest, the way hit points are... But nothing prevents a GM from thinking about it!

I say you should think about what a level actually means to you, and therefore what level drain means. For some, levels represent training or knowledge, so it takes a long time to restore levels. For others, levels represent life force, and level drain is a kind of wound, so it can be healed, although perhaps not as quickly as ordinary wounds. For me, levels represent confidence and luck, so quick recovery is a possibility.

The short answer is always "Think about how it works in the fantasy world first, then use rules that make that fantasy world possible. Don't do it the other way around."

[countingwizard]

Mar 1, 2018 16:41:02 GMT -6 tetramorph said:

geoffrey, I like the way talysman interprets it. Something like this:

Life-energy (not level) drain causes you to function at the lower level, but does not affect XP accrued.

Upon gaining any additional, new XP, one level is restored.

So, for each level lost (mechanic) as part of life-energy drain (in game world) it takes another new accrual of XP to regain it.

Example:

Level 4 Hero 8K XP

Life-energy drained by a vampire: functions as a level-2 FM.
Somehow makes it back alive. Accrues 1K XP from treasure and kills.
Now functions as level 3 FM.
Heads back to dungeon. Accrues another 1K XP from treasures and kills.
Now restored to full function as Hero.

If you have accrued enough to level, you still have to make up for the lost levels before you get to enjoy the full benefits your XP gives.

Sorry, that was long-winded. It is really simple but hard to explain succinctly (if you are me).

Fight on!

Now I understand what you were trying to tell me a few games ago. I like this more than a simple rest. I still want to implement premature aging though as a permanent side effect.

[talysman]

Mar 15, 2018 14:39:55 GMT -6 countingwizard said:

Now I understand what you were trying to tell me a few games ago. I like this more than a simple rest. I still want to implement premature aging though as a permanent side effect.

I had some crazy aging rules I wrote up some time ago (useful for ghosts.) I'll see if I can find them. They might be useful for you, if only for comparison.

Ah, these aren't the original rules I came up with, but they should do. They come from an old blog post.

1. No age states, other than informally (less than 18 = young, more than 65 = old.) Eliminates the need for a table like in AD&D.
2. No penalties for age, it's just cosmetic until character dies of old age.
3. After age 65, roll 1d6 anytime character gets sick. On 5+, character dies. Add +1 to roll for every 15 years.
4. Also after age 65, roll 1d6 when recovering from injury. On 5+, the character never fully recovers and is left with a crippled arm or leg or addled brain.

Dwarves and elves have an effective age, comparable to human ages. Divide magical aging by three for dwarves, 10 for elves. If the campaign lasts long enough for natural aging to matter, add 1 year to effective age every 3 years for dwarves, 10 years for elves.

[countingwizard]

Mar 15, 2018 17:29:43 GMT -6 talysman said:

Mar 15, 2018 14:39:55 GMT -6 countingwizard said:

Now I understand what you were trying to tell me a few games ago. I like this more than a simple rest. I still want to implement premature aging though as a permanent side effect.

I had some crazy aging rules I wrote up some time ago (useful for ghosts.) I'll see if I can find them. They might be useful for you, if only for comparison.

Ah, these aren't the original rules I came up with, but they should do. They come from an old blog post.

1. No age states, other than informally (less than 18 = young, more than 65 = old.) Eliminates the need for a table like in AD&D.
2. No penalties for age, it's just cosmetic until character dies of old age.
3. After age 65, roll 1d6 anytime character gets sick. On 5+, character dies. Add +1 to roll for every 15 years.
4. Also after age 65, roll 1d6 when recovering from injury. On 5+, the character never fully recovers and is left with a crippled arm or leg or addled brain.

Dwarves and elves have an effective age, comparable to human ages. Divide magical aging by three for dwarves, 10 for elves. If the campaign lasts long enough for natural aging to matter, add 1 year to effective age every 3 years for dwarves, 10 years for elves.

Yeah I want to use something similar that ages you by 10 years per level drained, and have characters that can operate within a threshold of ages before they become too infirm or young to adventure. I'm not even sure the level drain needs to be temporary in effect either to use it. I age elves and dwarves the equivalent amount of years so they don't get off easy either though.

[Deleted]

I've always seen level drains similar to concussions. Getting one messes you up. You're just worse after. While there's a time based healing process, the damage is done. You've got to work to get back what you've lost. I always just did it by the book (where you lose your levels and XP and have to earn it all back to 'recover') - this matches the times I've clocked myself hard enough to have long term effects. That said, I like this notion of losing the levels, but not the XP, for a couple of reasons -

1. This recovery of levels models some of the effects of multiple, unhealed concussions (you're odds of dying from an given brain injury is greater if you've got unhealed head injuries). So the 9th level fighter, who gets hit for 4 levels, only has 5 levels to lose before they die, and that could be earned back simply with time/rest. There's a certain amount of retraining that needs to happen too, so the idea that the fighter would be able to recover these levels over 4 adventures, where they earn at least one xp feels good to me. I'd probably rule that when you're disconnected in this way, your xp total doesn't actually go up any as well - otherwise, I could see this fighter coming out ahead when their level actually catches up with their XP total (which isn't how earning enough XP to cover multiple levels words elsewhere in the game).

[Finarvyn]

I had one adventure where a monk character encountered an undead creature without knowing what it was, and proceeded to hit it twice with an unarmed attack (punch and kick) whereupon I suppose he ought to have lost two levels. That troubled me and I ended up giving him a massive strength drain instead of a level drain. Given a number of sessions I slowly allowed the strength to return to him.

I think that the notion of a level drain is supposed to be a case where a person's life force is being sucked out of his body. We want undead to be scary, perhaps deadly, but I'm not 100% certain that I want an undead to totally wreck a character. Whether it be a strength drain or level drain, I like to make it a temporary effect in my campaign but I can certainly understand where a DM might want to make it a permanent effect.

Interesting to know that Gary started with it temporary and then switched. Hmmm.

[derv]

I wonder if they played around with paralysis effects for these first and found it to be too deadly and restrictive to the players and, instead, came up with the idea of level drains.

[hamurai]

All our early groups had level drain as a temporary effect, I think. Some refs allowed us to recover naturally, others wanted some kind of a restorative spell. Personally, I've never made level drains permanent. Seemed far too much for my taste.

[Finarvyn]

Mar 19, 2018 23:42:08 GMT -6 hamurai said:

All our early groups had level drain as a temporary effect, I think. Some refs allowed us to recover naturally, others wanted some kind of a restorative spell. Personally, I've never made level drains permanent. Seemed far too much for my taste.

I've always been of mixed minds on this.

(1) Permanent level drain makes undead really something to fear. Now we know why the Nazgul were such baddass creatures.

(2) Players work really hard for their levels, and taking a few away from a single monster encounter seems pretty harsh.

This is where I ended up making level drain some sort of temporary effect, but not one which would go away in the next session or so. I want there to be a standing terror of the undead, but I don't want to sabotage all of the efforts put in by the players.

[hamurai]

I agree that this makes undead something to fear. But I'd reserve (semi-)permanent level drain for the really powerful ones. That said, as a DM (regardless of the game system) I sometimes do take away hard-earned stuff (including levels) from players to make them go after it again (like a nemesis stealing their favoured artifact), but I always give them the chance to recover it. It's basically rewarding them the same thing twice, for double the joy but not double the game balance implications. Additionally, it does give their possessions some background flavour and story apart from the game mechanics. The items suddenly have a story to tell. Doesn't work as well with levels, though. But come to think of it, an undead might also steal their levels and the player may "loot" that part of their life force back when they defeat the enemy.

[Porphyre]

Also in the autumn there appeared a shadow of old troubles. One evening Sam came into the study and found his master looking very strange. He was very pale and his eyes seemed to see things far away.

‘What’s the matter, Mr. Frodo?’ said Sam.

‘I am wounded,’ he answered, ‘wounded; it will never really heal.’

But then he got up, and the turn seemed to pass, and he was quite himself the next day. It was not until afterwards that Sam recalled that the date was October the sixth. Two years before on that day it was dark in the dell under Weathertop.

[Deleted]

When you have players with multiple characters playing in varying groups, being drained levels does not "ruin" a character.

[talysman]

Mar 22, 2018 22:22:48 GMT -6 @gronanofsimmerya said:

When you have players with multiple characters playing in varying groups, being drained levels does not "ruin" a character.

I have never, ever understood the idea of a "ruined" character. It seems like a power fantasy to me.

"OMG, I can't be a lower level than other people!"

[Deleted]

I've seen grown adults (at least according to their drivers' licenses) throw sh*tfits over it.

[hamurai]

I guess it depends a lot on how fast your group gains levels. If you've played a year to go from level 3 to level 4 and then get drained it's probably a lot more frustrating than when you level every other game session.

[talysman]

Mar 23, 2018 12:46:02 GMT -6 hamurai said:

I guess it depends a lot on how fast your group gains levels. If you've played a year to go from level 3 to level 4 and then get drained it's probably a lot more frustrating than when you level every other game session.

IT has nothing to do with how fast your group levels. It has to do with whether you distinguish between "losing something in the game" and "not enjoying a game".

I can lose a lot of levels in a game. I can be the only one who lost levels. And it can be in a game with a very slow rate of leveling. I would feel mad about losing those levels, but as long as I don't suspect the GM of cheating or someone deliberately rigging that situation, I still enjoy the game. I don't get mad at the GM for placing level-draining undead in a dungeon, nor do I get mad at the game for including level-draining undead. I don't have my character commit suicide because I'm mad, as some people have posted on various forums. I don't deliberately try to sabotage everyone else's fun because I suffered a setback.

It's the same as having a character die, or losing my favorite magic item. I can say "Aw, man, that was my favorite character/item!" and not actually throw a tantrum.

[Deleted]

That's just crazy talk. Somebody might think your emotional age is greater than 11.

[hamurai]

Mar 23, 2018 15:17:42 GMT -6 talysman said:

IT has nothing to do with how fast your group levels. It has to do with whether you distinguish between "losing something in the game" and "not enjoying a game".

And some people don't enjoy a game when they lose something they've worked for very hard for a long time, even in a game world. Like gaining a level so they can finally use that cool spell or shiny sword they've always wanted. Just examples. Don't tell me you can't relate to or understand that. What I'm saying is, the level drain is much more potent when levels are very hard to get. Same goes for items. When you find a plate mail under each rock, the rust monster will no longer be terrifying.

Mar 23, 2018 15:17:42 GMT -6 talysman said:

I would feel mad about losing those levels, but as long as I don't suspect the GM of cheating or someone deliberately rigging that situation, I still enjoy the game.

That's all I'm saying. You'd feel mad about it. No one is saying the GM is cheating or anything. You'd probably not feel mad about losing a level if you knew that you'd level next session again anyway.

Mar 23, 2018 16:21:19 GMT -6 @gronanofsimmerya said:

That's just crazy talk. Somebody might think your emotional age is greater than 11.

I'll just guess and assume it was aimed at the "character suicide" thing.

[derv]

For comparison sake, the paralysis effects given in Chainmail are temporary. Ghouls and Wights paralyze normal men for 1 turn only. Wraiths paralyze normal men until they are touched by a Hero or Elf. It seems an attempt to simulate fear. They have no effect on Heroic sort.

Considering the Monster Matrix given in U&WA, level 3-6 monsters (Wights>>Vampires) will be most prominent at dungeon levels 4-5. By this point characters should have attained a moderate level and some magic items. So, how do you make these type of creatures more than beefed up zombies without level drains?

If these undead were allowed to paralyze Heroic types with each hit, they would become extremely deadly. Wraiths have a 50% chance of hitting men in chainmail. Level drains at least give a character a chance of counter attacking or running away.

Which would be more of a bummer for a player, drained a level or two vs. dead?

Food for thought.

I guess I'm trying to paint a more generous face on level drains, not trying to talk anyone out of or into making them temporary.

[hamurai]

You could drain a character of stat points, which upon hitting 0, make the character a vampire's slave, for example. Or the withering touch of a wight might drain charisma and people will no longer follow you but fear you for your looks. Or drained constitution makes for a less healthy future. You might even lose HP permanently when they're drained.

In terms of in-game logic, a level drain basically means taking experience from a character. How's that done? Do the drained characters forget what they learned? But that's probably for those who like making sense in a game world and not just do things because some rules say so. Personally, I never understood it.

[talysman]

Mar 24, 2018 1:49:32 GMT -6 hamurai said:

Mar 23, 2018 15:17:42 GMT -6 talysman said:

IT has nothing to do with how fast your group levels. It has to do with whether you distinguish between "losing something in the game" and "not enjoying a game".

And some people don't enjoy a game when they lose something they've worked for very hard for a long time, even in a game world. Like gaining a level so they can finally use that cool spell or shiny sword they've always wanted. Just examples. Don't tell me you can't relate to or understand that.

I can relate to getting mad about having bad luck or making a mistake and losing something you wanted.

What I can't relate to is objectifying that feeling and shifting the blame elsewhere. Saying "the problem is level drain, and the GM, for allowing level drain, and the game, for including level drain."

Even so, I can make allowances for those who are 50/50 on their ability to distinguish between anger at their misfortune and anger at the game. If you dislike a game session or even a game because you can't tolerate a loss, fine. You can probably find a game that doesn't include the possibility of such loss, or ask people you play with if they feel like modding it to make that loss easier or less frequent. But the problem is not the loss, but your feelings about the loss.

Mar 24, 2018 1:49:32 GMT -6 hamurai said:

What I'm saying is, the level drain is much more potent when levels are very hard to get. Same goes for items. When you find a plate mail under each rock, the rust monster will no longer be terrifying.

The whole point of level drain is it's supposed to be terrifying. But again, no one is stopping you from playing a less-terrifying game, or agreeing among yourselves to use a houserule to reduce the terror. Plenty of people play with the terror, though. So there's nothing wrong with the level-drain mechanics, or the rate of recovery from level drain.

(The irony, here, is that my involvement with this thread is because tetramorph mentioned my rules that allow faster recovery from level drain: one level per adventure until back to your starting point. But I made that change to speed up things slightly while still maintaining the danger of level drain. I did not make the change because I'm mad about the way the game does things. I can play with the level drain rules as they are written.)

Mar 24, 2018 1:49:32 GMT -6 hamurai said:

Mar 23, 2018 15:17:42 GMT -6 talysman said:

I would feel mad about losing those levels, but as long as I don't suspect the GM of cheating or someone deliberately rigging that situation, I still enjoy the game.

That's all I'm saying. You'd feel mad about it. No one is saying the GM is cheating or anything. You'd probably not feel mad about losing a level if you knew that you'd level next session again anyway.

You're still missing the point. Of course I would still be mad about losing levels, even if I regain all of them automatically at the beginning of the next session. But I'm mad at my misfortune. I'm mad because I made a mistake: didn't see the clues that there might be undead in the dungeon, didn't bring a cleric, or holy water, didn't have a back-up plan, whatever. I'm not mad about the rules. I'm not mad because my character "is ruined", which is exactly what started this tangent.

I am saying that if you think your character is ruined because you lost one or more levels, then I cannot understand you. I can't see things that way. The things that happen to your character, even the bad things, contribute to your character, become part of your story. A temporary setback -- and let's face it, even under rules as written, level loss is temporary -- does not ruin a character.

Mar 24, 2018 10:24:14 GMT -6 hamurai said:

You could drain a character of stat points, which upon hitting 0, make the character a vampire's slave, for example. Or the withering touch of a wight might drain charisma and people will no longer follow you but fear you for your looks. Or drained constitution makes for a less healthy future. You might even lose HP permanently when they're drained.

Stat point drain is annoying because of the bookkeeping, and because as written, it's even harder to gain a point of Strength or Con than it is to regain a hit point or a level. Permanent HP loss is even worse, since that means that gaining a level doesn't raise hit points, permanently crippling a character. Why remove level drain to replace it with something even worse?

Of course, maybe you didn't really mean "permanent HP loss", just temporary inability to heal until you gain a level... which is no better than level drain. Or maybe you want stat drain, but want to add recovery rules. If it's as fast as hit point recovery, then there's no real difference in effect. You are just punishing the player with extra bookkeeping.

Mar 24, 2018 10:24:14 GMT -6 hamurai said:

In terms of in-game logic, a level drain basically means taking experience from a character. How's that done? Do the drained characters forget what they learned? But that's probably for those who like making sense in a game world and not just do things because some rules say so. Personally, I never understood it.

It doesn't mean "taking experience from a character". It means "reduction in all abilities". If you interpret level as "learning", I suppose you could interpret level drain as partial amnesia. I don't, because I interpret it as "confidence and luck". But that's a matter of taste.

[Melan]

My rules for level drain are thus:

• Undead which would drain one level drain 1d6 Constitution.
• Undead which would drain one level drain 2d4 Constitution.
• You are dead at 0 Constitution.
• Ability loss returns at a rate of 1 point per day of rest.

This solution has served us rather well - undead are properly scary, since a few hits can bring down even a mighty hero, and recuperation takes time (like in the LotR, actually!), but the losses do not amount to months' worth of play. Maybe regular drain wouldn't sting as much if we played daily or multiple times per week, but alas, those days are long over.

[derv]

Mar 24, 2018 10:24:14 GMT -6 hamurai said:

You might even lose HP permanently when they're drained.

If you view level drain as representing some sort of loss of inner life energy it seems the results should be permanent.

I'm not a big fan of ability score reductions because ability scores serve such a minor role in the game over all. In my opinion it's not worth bothering with.

I agree that experience loss is a bummer, but I'm not really as fixated on the characters loss in this regard. The real penalty comes from the resulting loss of HD. As is level drains already effect hp's in this way. So, I would be willing to compromise. Each hit could reduce 1-2 levels of HD (This would vary by Class. Otherwise, it's like taking max damage from a hit). The character could retain their status level and experience gains for combat purposes. They could even continue to advance in level. Yet, the reduction of HD, and by extension hp's, would be permanent. Maybe it could be healed with an attempted cure serious wounds spell that would require a minimum roll of 6 pips per HD lost to restore. If the minimum is not met, the spell is wasted and HD are not restored.