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Post by cadriel on Jul 25, 2017 15:31:00 GMT -6
Having a weekend off from refereeing our group's Napolenic campaign (A wargame with national goals set by the players) I spent the time reading CONAN novels and watching old monster movies while munching on popcorn. (Original: jovianclouds.com/blackmoor/Archive_OLD/rpg2.html) Ever curious about this, I've found that Arneson had no recollection of which Conan book he was reading; he didn't recall, and the Lancer series was all available by April 1971. But he mentioned that his monster movies were on "channel 5," which in the Twin Cities meant KSTP. They ran a weekend double feature of monster flicks, "Horror Incorporated," and there happens to be a retrospective tribute site for them. Dave was running a "medieval Braunstein" on April 17, so the weekends leading up to it look like this: Saturday, March 27, 1971: The Raven (1935) / The Great Impersonation (1935)Saturday, April 3, 1971: The Wolf Man (1941) / The Mad Ghoul (1943)Saturday, April 10, 1971: Frankenstein Meets the Wolf Man (1943) / She-Wolf of London (1946)I wonder if we have sufficient dates and times for Dave's Napoleonic campaign to determine what movies he was actually watching? Not that it's important, but it's a fun bit of trivia that we might have the puzzle pieces to suss out. |
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Post by havard on Jul 25, 2017 16:28:26 GMT -6
Interesting!
Originally, Dave Arneson was talking about a the Christmas holidays of 1970/71 though, so I always assumed his movie marathon was happening around that time?
-Havard
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Post by aldarron on Dec 4, 2017 12:02:44 GMT -6
I think its fair to point to any/all the movies run by KSTP-TV's “Horror Incorporated” “Creature Feature” movies in late 1970 and spring of 71 as potentially influential, because Arneson regularly watched this stuff. However, we can narrow the likely choices of the key movie influence if we accept a couple assumptions. It certainly seems that the first "Blackmoor" game - though it may not yet have been called that - was played in April of 1971 and was set in what was to become the town of Blackmoor and this was NOT the famous debut of the Castle/dungeon game. So if we assume the Blackmoor Castle/dungeon game was sometime after the April 17, 1971 (CoTT, Vol III no. 4) Medieval Braunstein set as a poker game with a troll under the troll bridge, then we have a TPQ to work with. We know, famously, that Bob Meyer's Hero was killed instantly in that game, and he got pretty hacked off about it, and told Arneson in no uncertain terms what he thought of the CHAINMAIL FCT rules that got his character killed so easily. Apparently, this is what set Arneson to developing HP etc and his own combat resolution methods. So the next Blackmoor game we know of from Cott was on May 22nd - about a month later. Of course there is some possibility of games happening between these dates, and we even have a quote form Arneson that the second game occurred a week after the first, but there is no hint that the troll bridge or any possible follow up game was the famous Castle/Dungeon game. This week later game, if it happens at all, seems to have involved the town again and maybe only one or two people. But, if there was a follow-up game, again using CM FCT, Then we should probably only look at the May movies. In any case, the span between April 17 and May 22nd is ample time for Arneson to have experimented a bit and then developed his basic idea for the Blackmoor campaign with it's castle and dungeon. So I'm suggesting the May 22nd date *could possibly* be the date when "the boys" came over for Napoleonics and found the Kibri castle model sitting on the ping pong table. Remember, this is the date that Dan Nicholson received his Spanish Royal sheet that I 'blogged about. Here are the movies shown by Horror Inc between Aprill 17 and May 22nd 1971. Saturday, April 24, 1971: Son of Dracula (1943) / The Invisible Man (1933) Saturday, May 1, 1971: The Black Cat (1934) / The Invisible Man Returns (1940) Saturday, May 8, 1971: Dracula (1931) / House of Horrors (1946) Saturday, May 15, 1971: Frankenstein (1931) / The Invisible Ray (1936) Okay, of these only one is really strongly analogous to Blackmoor, in terms of it being set in an old castle populated with monsters, and that film would be Dracula, but Frankenstein isn't too far off because the lab is set up in a creepy castle too, near and old village with a graveyard. I think these are the best candidates, but that all depends on the Castle/dungeon showing up by May 22nd. If it was sometime after that date then we would have to expand the list. P.S. you can search for the Horror inc movies by month and year HERE |
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Post by Finarvyn on Dec 4, 2017 16:18:02 GMT -6
I've seen this sort of discussion on other forum threads, but I have to say that I think that it's astounding that one can find out what movies were playing on a weekend nearly 50 years ago.  |
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Post by aldarron on Sept 11, 2018 6:40:27 GMT -6
Had some fun recently digging into this a little deeper HEREAnd a follow up HERE |
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Post by asaki on Sept 11, 2018 15:54:10 GMT -6
It's like digging straight into his grey matter.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 13, 2018 23:33:31 GMT -6
I think the connection between the actual design and the monster movies is quite far-fetched - but not entirely implausible. I think the trick here is to show that this possibility is more *exponentially* more likely than others: After all, there are several locales named Blackmoor both IRL as well in literary sources that Mr Arneson might have been acquainted with. - I think one of the ways to find this out might be to investigate the very earliest fantasy adventures between the Icelandic adventures and the first dungeon adventure as described by Greg Svenson, if that is possible, at all. As in: What dramatic or in-game function did the fantasy environment have for Arneson? Was the Iceland story really designed with the idea in mind to visit a fantasy world, at all? Was the idea to enter the dungeon, right away? Was the idea to have a rather Ravenloft-ish "weekend in hell", and then go back? Or was the medieval environment really just created as a momentary stand-in, and the product of a moment's whim? The rationale here being that, if Arneson had a plot in mind, the names used might reflect his inspiration. Because if the story really goes that Arneson visited Iceland before he brought the gaming group there, something like this migh well be the source of the origin of the Black Moors/Blackmoor name: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimmuborgir- Or, at least, the "Black Rooms" theory so far is not highly more likely than such a more mundane explanation. - Not trying to crap on your theory, Dan. Loving what you did there, actually!  |
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Post by aldarron on Sept 16, 2018 12:54:08 GMT -6
To be honest I'm not sure I understand your objections fully. I don't think Arneson was inspired by Nancy Drew. I think the "idea" was to set up a medieval world with fantasy elements as a new campaign setting - that's what comes through pretty clearly in the early CoTT entries and in the stories related later. As far as I know, Arneson never visited Iceland, unless perhaps later in life. The Icelandic cave adventure was set up on the premis that his transatlantic flight didn't make it back from London, but crash landed in Iceland instead. Which then led his would be rescuers to Iceland and a Magical cave that transported them to Blackmoor - Elements perhaps borrowed from Jules Verne. The story was a Deus ex machina to get the players into his new setting.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2018 15:57:27 GMT -6
To be honest I'm not sure I understand your objections fully. I don't think Arneson was inspired by Nancy Drew. - Mind you, I'm not talking about the movies serving Arneson as general inspiration, I'm talking about there being specific relations, like what you wrote about the general similarity of the castles, and the possible relation between "Blackmoor", and "Black Room". I think it's an interesting theory, but unless you can actively disprove other, simpler explanations ("Blackmoor" being a play on "Braunstein", or it being a reference to a lesser-known locale from the Arthurian cycle), then I don't see how it can hold. - And, of course, the name "Blackmoor" was certainly already "out there" as part of the fantasy/horror repertoire when Arneson started using it, so the choice of the name could also - theoretically - have been completely random. Again, not trying to argue against what you found, and not saying that this is what I believe - but there is certainly a middle ground between "Black Room", and Nancy Drew, or, whatever, the opera by Alan Bush. I think the "idea" was to set up a medieval world with fantasy elements as a new campaign setting - that's what comes through pretty clearly in the early CoTT entries and in the stories related later. As far as I know, Arneson never visited Iceland, unless perhaps later in life. The Icelandic cave adventure was set up on the premis that his transatlantic flight didn't make it back from London, but crash landed in Iceland instead. Which then led his would be rescuers to Iceland and a Magical cave that transported them to Blackmoor - Elements perhaps borrowed from Jules Verne. The story was a Deus ex machina to get the players into his new setting. Ah, okay, thank you! I've lately become interested in the "Icelandic adventures", and I want to read up on this, some time soon. Jules Verne makes sense, because of Iceland. Yet, there I got to ask the same question: Do we know for a fact that Arneson knew either the book or the movie "Voyage to the Center of the Earth"? Because the cave-as-gate-to-another-world trope had certainly been in heavy use in the 60s and 70s, as well. - Again, this is not me trying to debate you; this is me asking for specifics about a topic that I consider super-interesting. |
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Post by aldarron on Sept 17, 2018 6:10:41 GMT -6
To be honest I'm not sure I understand your objections fully. I don't think Arneson was inspired by Nancy Drew. - Mind you, I'm not talking about the movies serving Arneson as general inspiration, I'm talking about there being specific relations, like what you wrote about the general similarity of the castles, and the possible relation between "Blackmoor", and "Black Room". I think it's an interesting theory, but unless you can actively disprove other, simpler explanations ("Blackmoor" being a play on "Braunstein", or it being a reference to a lesser-known locale from the Arthurian cycle), then I don't see how it can hold. - And, of course, the name "Blackmoor" was certainly already "out there" as part of the fantasy/horror repertoire when Arneson started using it, so the choice of the name could also - theoretically - have been completely random. Again, not trying to argue against what you found, and not saying that this is what I believe - but there is certainly a middle ground between "Black Room", and Nancy Drew, or, whatever, the opera by Alan Bush. I don't think there's any need to disprove other influences, meaning its' not an all or nothing situation. I'm quite sure Black Moor was appealing to Arneson as a cognate of Brown Stone. I'm suggesting these movies were the immediate source he drew from, certainly not the only source. It all exists in a web of context after all. Although, I don't recall any Arthurian location called Blackmoor and I've never seen any Arthurian influences in Arneson's work to speak of, so I don't think he was much of a fan of that material. I think the "idea" was to set up a medieval world with fantasy elements as a new campaign setting - that's what comes through pretty clearly in the early CoTT entries and in the stories related later. As far as I know, Arneson never visited Iceland, unless perhaps later in life. The Icelandic cave adventure was set up on the premis that his transatlantic flight didn't make it back from London, but crash landed in Iceland instead. Which then led his would be rescuers to Iceland and a Magical cave that transported them to Blackmoor - Elements perhaps borrowed from Jules Verne. The story was a Deus ex machina to get the players into his new setting. Ah, okay, thank you! I've lately become interested in the "Icelandic adventures", and I want to read up on this, some time soon. Jules Verne makes sense, because of Iceland. Yet, there I got to ask the same question: Do we know for a fact that Arneson knew either the book or the movie "Voyage to the Center of the Earth"? Because the cave-as-gate-to-another-world trope had certainly been in heavy use in the 60s and 70s, as well. - Again, this is not me trying to debate you; this is me asking for specifics about a topic that I consider super-interesting. The Disney movie with Pat Boone was very popular. Pretty much everybody saw it at some point back in the 60's and 70's. But yeah, that's just a guess based on the generally similar theme and location and the fact that rafts and cave rivers seem prominent in each. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2018 13:47:31 GMT -6
I don't think there's any need to disprove other influences, meaning its' not an all or nothing situation. I'm quite sure Black Moor was appealing to Arneson as a cognate of Brown Stone. I'm suggesting these movies were the immediate source he drew from, certainly not the only source. It all exists in a web of context after all. That's a good explanation, I think. Now, as to those movies being of great importance to Arneson, wasn't Svenson's first dungeon adventure highly inspired by "The Thing from Another World", or some similar movie that featured a giant gelatinous cube? Although, I don't recall any Arthurian location called Blackmoor and I've never seen any Arthurian influences in Arneson's work to speak of, so I don't think he was much of a fan of that material. Actually, there are some, even if it's hard to find them - first, Blackmoor/Blackmore Valley in Dorset was apparently the place of several battles between either the mythical Arthur or the historical Romano-Welsh against the Saxons. Second, there are locales named either Darkmoor or Blackmoor in several Arthurian texts from newer sources - namely in "Prince Valiant", and other comics.- And as to Arneson being influenced by the Arthurian stories, well, he named the baron and later king of Blackmoor "Uther".   That name seems to have been his choice, not David Ritchie's. - Now, WHEN Arneson added that name, earlier or later into the decade that the "FFC" would last, I don't know. But yeah, that's just a guess based on the generally similar theme and location and the fact that rafts and cave rivers seem prominent in each. Are there any detailed sources on the Iceland adventures that are publicly available? - I recall that Jon Peterson wrote about it, but I don't have the book with me, right now... |
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Post by aldarron on Oct 2, 2018 12:07:55 GMT -6
Actually, there are some, even if it's hard to find them - first, Blackmoor/Blackmore Valley in Dorset was apparently the place of several battles between either the mythical Arthur or the historical Romano-Welsh against the Saxons. Second, there are locales named either Darkmoor or Blackmoor in several Arthurian texts from newer sources - namely in "Prince Valiant", and other comics.- And as to Arneson being influenced by the Arthurian stories, well, he named the baron and later king of Blackmoor "Uther". That name seems to have been his choice, not David Ritchie's. - Now, WHEN Arneson added that name, earlier or later into the decade that the "FFC" would last, I don't know. Prince Valient - that's interesting, yeah could be something there. You could also point to excalibur as the quintessential magic sword, etc. But these sort of things are pretty broadly known and could just as easily come from Disney cartoons as much as anything Arneson read. As for Uther - I don't think it is mere coincidence that we hear that name connected to Blackmoor only a few years after the John Boorman Excalibur film. Are there any detailed sources on the Iceland adventures that are publicly available? - I recall that Jon Peterson wrote about it, but I don't have the book with me, right now... Check the Comeback Inn. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2018 18:08:51 GMT -6
Prince Valient - that's interesting, yeah could be something there. You could also point to excalibur as the quintessential magic sword, etc. But these sort of things are pretty broadly known and could just as easily come from Disney cartoons as much as anything Arneson read. As for Uther - I don't think it is mere coincidence that we hear that name connected to Blackmoor only a few years after the John Boorman Excalibur film. In "Prince Valiant", there's the very famous "Ogre of Darkmoor" storyline - arguably the most famous and prevailing storyline of the entire strip, as it also served as an inspiration for the DC character "Etrigan the Demon".  - The Excalibur movie is from 1981, though, IIRC; I am not sure if that is still relevant for Blackmoor, if we postulate that Arneson really had a say with DA1. From what I understand, Arneson's Blackmoor campaign went through three or four phases before he moved to... California? ...In 1981? - How developed Blackmoor as a setting was during each of these stages is difficult to tell. WHen did Greg Svenson begin to name his in-game family in a certain way? Was Loch Glomen a place that was with Blackmoor from the beginning, or was it added later? What was brought in by Arneson, and part of a conceptual approach to the setting, what did his players contribute somehow? So man questions that are likely unanswerable, from today's point of view. Check the Comeback Inn. I know there is one older thread there, but not about more. Wonderful website, that one, by the way: Featuring one of the most handsome admins in all of the oldschool scene. The most handsome fellow I personally have ever known, at the very least.  |
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That name seems to have been his choice, not David Ritchie's. - Now, WHEN Arneson added that name, earlier or later into the decade that the "FFC" would last, I don't know.