Did Dave Arnesons Blackmoor campaign actually start in 1970?

[Cedgewick]

The first published mention of a Blackmoor game appeared in Arneson's Corner of the Table fanzine (Vol. 3 No. 4):

There will be a medevil "BRAUNSTEIN" April 17, 1971 at the home of David Arneson from 1500 hrs to 2400 hrs with refreshments being available on the usual basis. Players may come at any time and any number are welcome to attend what should prove to be an exciting time.  It will feature mythical creatures and a poker game under the Troll's bridge between sunup and sundown.

Another mention appeared presumably in the the next issue (snapshot posted by Rob Kuntz):




Note that neither mention of the medieval Braunsteins indicate that it is the first of these type of games.  In fact, note that the April 17th mention indicates that refreshments will be available "on the usual basis."  If not these, then what was the first "medieval Braunstein" (i.e., Blackmoor) game?

Dave Arneson said in The First Fantasy Campaign (pg. 42, 1977):

The Dungeon was first established in the Winter and Spring of 1970-71 and it grew from there.

Greg Svenson, an early player, said here:

I have the unique experience of being the sole survivor of the first dungeon adventure in the history of "Dungeons & Dragons", indeed in the history of role-playing in general. This is the story of that first dungeon adventure.

During the Christmas break of 1970-71; our gaming group was meeting in Dave Arneson's basement in St. Paul, Minnesota. We had been playing a big Napoleonics miniatures campaign, which was getting bogged down in long drawn out miniatures battles. So, as a diversion for the group, one weekend Dave set up Blackmoor instead of Napoleonics on his ping pong table. The rules we used were based on "Chainmail", which is a set of medieval miniature rules with a fantasy supplement allowing for magic and various beings found in the "Lord of the Rings". I had never played any games like it before, although I had read "Lord of the Rings". Other members of the group had played the game before, but always doing adventures in and around the town of Blackmoor. By the end of the weekend I had fallen in love with the game.

John Snider, another early player, said here:

Dan:
One of the things people have discussed back and forth is chronology. Dave Arneson said he invented Blackmoor over the Christmas holiday, but it’s not clear which year. Do you remember if it was December of 1970 or December of 1971? Some folks have said it was the last week or two in 1970 but Chainmail wasn’t published till the summer of ’71, and since Mr. Arneson said he started off using Chainmail, it would seem to have to have been the last week or two of 1971.

Mr. Snider:
I thought that Dave had a draft copy of chainmail (or something like it) prior to publication, at least what he had behind the judge's invisibility spell was a raft of paper and not a book .. that came later. I thought we started in 70 not 71.

We therefore have three of the original players all stating independently that they were playing Blackmoor in the winter of 1970.

We know that Blackmoor started as a medieval Braunstein run by Arneson, and we know that Arneson took the Braunsteins over after Wesely left for the army.  Wesely says here that he left for the army in October 1970.  If that is the case, note that it is indeed possible that Arneson was running Blackmoor in December of 1970, as the three players have independently asserted.

One author wrote:

A 1970-1971 date faces the challenge that Chainmail had not yet been released; all statements by Arneson, including the following quote from the First Fantasy Campaign, seem to agree that "the Dungeon of BLACKMOOR . .. began with only the basic monsters in CHAINMAIL..." See also Different Worlds #3: "Chainmail to handle the combat at first," the last two words salient here.

However, note what John Snider mentioned in his interview:

I thought that Dave had a draft copy of chainmail (or something like it) prior to publication, at least what he had behind the judge's invisibility spell was a raft of paper and not a book .. that came later.

This is further corroborated by Lawrence Schick's 1991 book, Heroic Worlds:

Although the "Fantasy Supplement" to Chainmail had not yet been published, Gygax was happy to provide Arneson a copy of the fantasy combat rules for his personal use.

Note that John Snider is almost certainly not the source of this information for Schick (I believe Snider was in the military when Schick was involved with TSR, if someone could confirm this).  Therefore, we have two independent sources saying that Arneson had a draft copy of the chainmail rules, one specifically citing that he had the Fantasy Supplement in draft form.

One author wrote:

In the winter of 1970, it is unlikely that the Fantasy Supplement of Chainmail existed even in a draft form.

I disagree with this statement.  Lets take a look at the chronology of Chainmail:

4/1970- The Geneva Medieval Miniatures rules by Perren and Gygax appears in Panzerfaust; Dave Arneson joined the Castle & Crusade Society and Gygax mails him Domesday #3 on April 14, 1970

7/1970- The Lake Geneva Tactical Studies Association Medieval Miniatures rules by Gygax and Perren appear in Domesday #5

10/1970- A game using Patt's "Rules for Middle Earth" on display at Miniature Figure Collectors of America convention in October; Patt's game also mentioned in Don Lowry's Guidon magazine around this time

Again, there is no conflict here: certainly a draft version of the Fantasy Supplement could have been produced by Gygax by December of 1970 (whether it incorporated material from Patt or not)  Also, remember that Gygax called the Fantasy Supplement an "afterthought," suggesting that it would have been added right before the final manuscript was ready.

With Chainmail going to print in March of 1971, the final manuscript would have been needed far sooner than March 1971, considering the publishing technology of the time.  Additionally, the final version of the rules would have almost certainly been playtested to some extent prior to being prepared for printing.  It seems reasonable, then, that the Chainmail rules in nearly final form, with the Fantasy Supplement, would have been available to give Arneson around December 1970. 

Certainly Gygax was in contact with Arneson during the winter of 1970, as they were collaborating on Don't Give Up the Ship! at this time (Arneson produced a first draft in early 1971 that had Gygax listed as a coauthor).  Therefore, not only is it reasonable to believe that a near-final version of Chainmail was around in December 1970, but it is also reasonable to believe that "Gygax was happy to provide Arneson a copy of the fantasy combat rules for his personal use," as Schick said.

Therefore, unless we have evidence to the contrary, EDIT: I have found some evidence which I will post below, and Aldarron lists some more belowI think we should start accepting that Blackmoor was being played in the winter of 1970, as stated by Dave, Greg, and John, and probably even the dungeons of Blackmoor were being explored by this time, as both Greg and Dave have asserted.

[Finarvyn]

You certainly make a compelling argument, Cedgewick, but I don't feel myself to be enough of an expert to really judge this stuff. Hopefully Jon or others more familiar with this will weigh in.

I was bothered at first by the thought that Dave might have had a pre-Chainmail draft since I hadn't seem much claim anywhere that Dave and Gary had any/much contact prior to the creation of the Blackmoor campaign, but it makes sense to me that if the pre-Chainmail rules by Gygax/Perrin were released in March, 1970, then Dave could have had access to them.

Again, I don't claim to be an expert. It's an interesting train of thought, however.

[howandwhy99]

When are the dates of the other seminal events regarding Arneson and Gygax? I mean, when did Dave run Gary in Blackmoor and begin the collaboration on D&D?

If it was in 1971 or early 1972, it might jog some memories on whether or not a year's worth of Blackmoor occurred before some significant event for the players. That could bolster the case.

[Cedgewick]

Jun 28, 2017 20:09:45 GMT -6 howandwhy99 said:

When are the dates of the other seminal events regarding Arneson and Gygax? I mean, when did Dave run Gary in Blackmoor and begin the collaboration on D&D?

Rob Kuntz was there and said November of 1972.

[aldarron]

Yep, those are all pretty much the arguments I used to make, and it is plausible, though it depends on a whole lot of "could be's and might have's".

I agree completely that player accounts need to be considered and correlated to hard data where such exists. The trouble I see at this point is that player recollections and the CoTT references all mesh pretty well with the 1971 origin, not so well with the 1970 origin.

No players save one have indicated any recollection of any games in the Blackmoor setting prior to a game that took place at the Troll Bridge on the edge of town. (the one player who says he may have adventured prior the Troll Bridge game said it was a solo dry run) So, the core group in Minnesota seems to agreement that this Troll Bridge game was pretty much the debut of the world of Blackmoor.

Bob Meyer described his participation in the Troll Bridge game as an abject failure, and told Arneson as much in no uncertain terms, because his character was killed by one dice roll early on. He even declined to participate in subsequent Blackmoor games for some time. Undoubtedly this is exactly what Arneson was talking about in various interviews when he said "some" of the players were unhappy with the instant death nature of the Chainmail FCT, and that was why he came up with his own system.

As it happens, CoTT gives a firm date for an upcoming Troll Bridge medieval Braunstein game of April 17, 1971 - well actually it says 1970, but given that it is without question the 1971 issue and I don't think they had a time machine, that has to be a typo.


The next issue of Cott, (Vol. III, no 5) promises the start of "reports from the Black Moors" medieval setting and announces another medieval game on May 22, after the general meeting. This is the meeting where Dan Nicholson received the Spanish Royals character sheet. I *think* this also is where Arneson introduces his new combat method, replacing the last system that had pissed off Bob Meyer so much. I also think this is when he introduced the gang to Blackmoor dungeon.

Arneson often told the story of how he ate popcorn and watched monster movies over a weekend and was inspired to create Blackmoor Castle and dungeons. As it happens, two weeks prior to the May 22 1971 meeting the Horror Incorporated broadcast in the Twin cities showed Dracula. A week later they showed Frankenstein. Either one, but especially Dracula, have creepy monster filled castles.

One of the next early adventures the original players recollect is the plane crash/icelandic cave adventure that led into Blackmoor. That was undoubtedly inspired by Arneson's summer trip to europe in 1971.

Dave Megarry also is fairly certain he didn't get involved in Blackmoor until July of 1971, which fits, because he also wasn't at those April and May meetings. However if the Blackmoor games had begun sometime in 1970, Megarry would certainly have been involved. He was a very active member and liked the fantasy stuff. He was the one who phasered the elephant.

None of this is conclusive of course, but I think it is a better fit of theory to data.

[Cedgewick]

Jun 28, 2017 12:57:19 GMT -6 Cedgewick said:

Therefore, unless we have evidence to the contrary, EDIT: I have found some evidence which I will post below, and Aldarron lists some more belowI think we should start accepting that Blackmoor was being played in the winter of 1970, as stated by Dave, Greg, and John, and probably even the dungeons of Blackmoor were being explored by this time, as both Greg and Dave have asserted.

The evidence I found is as follows. In the eBay listing for that Corner of the Table (vol. 3 No. 4, April 1971), the seller (I believe it was Paul Stormberg) wrote the following:

Dave indicated to me over the phone, just three weeks prior to his death, that this was the date of the very first fantasy adventure game - what would become his Blackmoor campaign - the beginning of it all!

[Cedgewick]

Jun 28, 2017 21:06:14 GMT -6 aldarron said:

No players save one have indicated any recollection of any games in the Blackmoor setting prior to a game that took place at the Troll Bridge on the edge of town. (the one player who says he may have adventured prior the Troll Bridge game said it was a solo dry run) So, the core group in Minnesota seems to agreement that this Troll Bridge game was pretty much the debut of the world of Blackmoor.

Bob Meyer described his participation in the Troll Bridge game as an abject failure, and told Arneson as much in no uncertain terms, because his character was killed by one dice roll early on. He even declined to participate in subsequent Blackmoor games for some time.

Where are these player accounts from?

Jun 28, 2017 21:06:14 GMT -6 aldarron said:

The next issue of Cott, (Vol. III, no 5) promises the start of "reports from the Black Moors" medieval setting and announces another medieval game on May 22, after the general meeting. This is the meeting where Dan Nicholson received the Spanish Royals character sheet. I *think* this also is where Arneson introduces his new combat method, replacing the last system that had pissed off Bob Meyer so much. I also think this is when he introduced the gang to Blackmoor dungeon.

Why do you think May 22 is the start of the Blackmoor dungeon?  Svenson's account places it over Christmas vacation, and if not 1970 then 1971, unless there is evidence to the contrary?

Jun 28, 2017 21:06:14 GMT -6 aldarron said:

Arneson often told the story of how he ate popcorn and watched monster movies over a weekend and was inspired to create Blackmoor Castle and dungeons. As it happens, two weeks prior to the May 22 1971 meeting the Horror Incorporated broadcast in the Twin cities showed Dracula. A week later they showed Frankenstein. Either one, but especially Dracula, have creepy monster filled castles.

Was this on Channel 5? I believe he mentioned that channel in one of his interviews.

Jun 28, 2017 21:06:14 GMT -6 aldarron said:

Dave Megarry also is fairly certain he didn't get involved in Blackmoor until July of 1971, which fits, because he also wasn't at those April and May meetings. However if the Blackmoor games had begun sometime in 1970, Megarry would certainly have been involved. He was a very active member and liked the fantasy stuff. He was the one who phasered the elephant.

If this is from a phone or email interview you conducted, could you post it please?

Jun 28, 2017 21:06:14 GMT -6 aldarron said:

None of this is conclusive of course, but I think it is a better fit of theory to data.

I added another data point above.

[aldarron]

Jun 28, 2017 23:55:33 GMT -6 Cedgewick said:

Where are these player accounts from?

Well, all over the place. I'm collating (in my head, cylon like) all sorts of player interviews and some perscomm. Megarry and Wesely have some online interviews with relevant info on early games, and there is some webpost info in the archives and original players section on the Blackmoor forum. In particular, look at what Bob Meyer mentions in this thread Here

Jun 28, 2017 23:55:33 GMT -6 Cedgewick said:

Jun 28, 2017 21:06:14 GMT -6 aldarron said:

The next issue of Cott, (Vol. III, no 5) promises the start of "reports from the Black Moors" medieval setting and announces another medieval game on May 22, after the general meeting. This is the meeting where Dan Nicholson received the Spanish Royals character sheet. I *think* this also is where Arneson introduces his new combat method, replacing the last system that had pissed off Bob Meyer so much. I also think this is when he introduced the gang to Blackmoor dungeon.

Why do you think May 22 is the start of the Blackmoor dungeon?  Svenson's account places it over Christmas vacation, and if not 1970 then 1971, unless there is evidence to the contrary?

Ah, I see where you are confused. Here's the thing; Greg Svenson's first game was Greg Svenson's first game. It was not the first Blackmoor game involving dungeons and castles by a matter of months. Greg has pointed out (because I asked way back when) that others had been playing Blackmoor games but he didn't know a whole lot about what they had been doing. You'll note from his adventure tale that Jim Abler is already well ensconced as the dungeon bad guy and Dave Fant as the Baron. I'm sure Greg's memory of playing the game over a Christmas break is accurate.

However, if you compare Greg's game experience to Arneson's accounts of when he revealed the Dungeon/castle game, there is no reason to think these are the same event. In Arneson's accounts, all the players are surprised by the new game. Whereas in Gregg's account, he's the only newbie.

Keep in mind that in June/July Arneson was in Europe, so with an end of May start date for the castle/dungeon focused play, the game wouldn't really have gotten off the ground until August. Some of these games also likely did involve miniatures battles, Marfeltd rampages, Mcduck's hijinxs, and Coot invasions. So the idea that Greg didn't get involved until December break isn't hard to imagine.

Jun 28, 2017 23:55:33 GMT -6 Cedgewick said:

Jun 28, 2017 21:06:14 GMT -6 aldarron said:

Arneson often told the story of how he ate popcorn and watched monster movies over a weekend and was inspired to create Blackmoor Castle and dungeons. As it happens, two weeks prior to the May 22 1971 meeting the Horror Incorporated broadcast in the Twin cities showed Dracula. A week later they showed Frankenstein. Either one, but especially Dracula, have creepy monster filled castles.

Was this on Channel 5? I believe he mentioned that channel in one of his interviews.

Yep. I have to point to Kent David Kelly's research in Hawk and Moor for that find. He managed to track down a website (Here) discussing those broadcasts.

Jun 28, 2017 23:55:33 GMT -6 Cedgewick said:

Jun 28, 2017 21:06:14 GMT -6 aldarron said:

Dave Megarry also is fairly certain he didn't get involved in Blackmoor until July of 1971, which fits, because he also wasn't at those April and May meetings. However if the Blackmoor games had begun sometime in 1970, Megarry would certainly have been involved. He was a very active member and liked the fantasy stuff. He was the one who phasered the elephant.

If this is from a phone or email interview you conducted, could you post it please?

Some personal discussions, but most of that info is available from Megarry in my post Here. The elephant/phaser story is mentioned in a number of places by both Arneson and Megarry - DW #3 for example.

[Deleted]

Made a huge post, but then realized there were errors.

Carry on with this discussion. We really need to stay out of it.

[increment]

Jun 28, 2017 12:57:19 GMT -6 Cedgewick said:

One author wrote:

A 1970-1971 date faces the challenge that Chainmail had not yet been released; all statements by Arneson, including the following quote from the First Fantasy Campaign, seem to agree that "the Dungeon of BLACKMOOR . .. began with only the basic monsters in CHAINMAIL..." See also Different Worlds #3: "Chainmail to handle the combat at first," the last two words salient here.

Of course there was always a sense in which there were activities of the C&CS in 1970 involving Arneson which we can represent as precursors to Blackmoor. But with all due deference to Mr. Schick and others, I don't think these anecdotes should persuade us that the earliest activities of Blackmoor proper did not draw directly on many principles of Chainmail, beyond just the nature of the monsters. 

One author wrote:

In the winter of 1970, it is unlikely that the Fantasy Supplement of Chainmail existed even in a draft form.

I disagree with this statement.  Lets take a look at the chronology of Chainmail:

4/1970- The Geneva Medieval Miniatures rules by Perren and Gygax appears in Panzerfaust; Dave Arneson joined the Castle & Crusade Society and Gygax mails him Domesday #3 on April 14, 1970

7/1970- The Lake Geneva Tactical Studies Association Medieval Miniatures rules by Gygax and Perren appear in Domesday #5

10/1970- A game using Patt's "Rules for Middle Earth" on display at Miniature Figure Collectors of America convention in October; Patt's game also mentioned in Don Lowry's Guidon magazine around this time

Again, there is no conflict here: certainly a draft version of the Fantasy Supplement could have been produced by Gygax by December of 1970 (whether it incorporated material from Patt or not)  Also, remember that Gygax called the Fantasy Supplement an "afterthought," suggesting that it would have been added right before the final manuscript was ready.

It is true that the new evidence about Leonard Patt later uncovered by one author should make us reevaluate one author's earlier assessment of how likely it is was that the Fantasy Supplement existed even in a draft form in the winter of 1970. But one author is still convinced that Arneson did not have any real intelligence of the Fantasy Supplement of Chainmail until just about the release of Chainmail, for a variety of reasons.

One author apologizes in advance for having the temerity to "barge in" to this thread uninvited to make assertions without providing any new scans. But as you are arguing that one author is perhaps wrong, I think one author has the right to express that he is still basically confident in his own timeline.

[Cedgewick]

The one author guy previously complained that I was "calling him out" when I used his name, hence why I refer to him as "one author"

[ritt]

Last year in a con game one group of my players assassinated the leader of one of my campaign's city-states in a massive, all-night, epic donnybrook. They also demolished a big hunk of a major city by driving a flying ship into it.

Recently, I've been rooting through my notes because I just don't remember which tyrant they killed.

I can't imagine what it would be like trying to remember game stuff like that after forty-odd years.