Does Arneson's "Cunning" stat map to Dex rather than Wis?

[Cedgewick]

When Pete Gaylord's character sheet surfaced, it listed a "Cunning" ability score.  Jon Peterson wrote in PatW (pg. 369):

Courage has no analog in first edition Dungeons & Dragons-and nor does Cunning, should we take that to be a basic personality trait.

After he purchased the "Beyond This Point be Dragons" manuscript, Peterson wrote in September of 2012 here:

Cunning, we read in the text, is the prime requisite for Clerics, so obviously it is the prototype for Wisdom.

Dan Boggs also agreed with this assessment, having wrote in December of 2012 here:

Cunning – the Prime requisite for Clerics BTPbD, is therefore synonymous with 3lbb Wisdom.

I'd like to put forward another possibility: Cunning maps to Dexterity.

First, consider that throughout the history of D&D, Dexterity has always enjoyed the distinction of being one of the most used abilities for adventuring and combat purposes.  Players throughout the various editions have often considered it the best stat to "max out".  Therefore, it would be a surprise if the original Blackmoor campaign didn't have an at least a somewhat analogous ability score. 

Lets look at what Greg Svenson said about ability scores in Blackmoor here:

My recollection is that the stats matched more closely those published in OD&D, with some minor name changes (appearance for cha and stamina for con). And while the original stat range was from 1-10, there were some as high as 13 (Svenny's wife's appearance for example). In my recollection, the stats were used more for task resolution than for adjustments in combat.

If ability scores were used for task resolution, it would seem there should be some ability score for adjudicating dodging, balancing, aiming, catching, throwing, slipping, etc... these kinds of basic physical activities seem to be the perfect use of ability scores.

Lets look at some definitions for cunning (the noun form):

Merriam-Webster (1913):

1. Knowledge; art; skill; dexterity.
Let my right hand forget her cunning. - Ps. cxxxvii. 5.
A carpenter's desert Stands more in cunning than in power. - Chapman.
2. The faculty or act of using stratagem to accomplish a purpose; fraudulent skill or dexterity; deceit; craft.
Discourage cunning in a child; cunning is the ape of wisdom. - Locke.
We take cunning for a sinister or crooked wisdom. -Bacon

Merriam-Webster Unabridged online

1: SKILL, DEXTERITY [the unabridged version cites these as synonyms for the first definition of the noun]
2: skill in devising or using indirect or subtle methods : ability to mislead, trap, or escape an enemy or opponent : slyness, craft
3: obsolete: knowledge, learning
4: obsolete: art; especially : magic art

American Heritage:

1. Skill in deception; guile.
2. Skill or adeptness in execution or performance; dexterity.

Oxford:

1 Skill in achieving one's ends by deceit.
2 Ingenuity.

Wiktionary:

1 Practical knowledge or experience; aptitude in performance; skill, proficiency; dexterity.
2 Practical skill employed in a secret or crafty manner; craft; artifice; skillful deceit.
3 The disposition to employ one's skill in an artful manner; craftiness; guile; artifice; skill of being cunning, sly, conniving, or deceitful.
4 The natural wit or instincts of an animal. the cunning of the fox or hare
5 (obsolete) Knowledge; learning; special knowledge (sometimes implying occult or magical knowledge).

Cambridge dictionary
No definition for the noun form, but it gives an example:

They made their way safely back through enemy territory by stealth and cunning.

From the above definitions, mapping Cunning to Dexterity seems feasible.  I would also argue that Cunning maps better to Dexterity than Cunning maps to the kind of Wisdom employed by Clerics.

Now lets look again at the manuscript "Beyond This Point be Dragons," which links Cunning to Wisdom via the prime requisite of a cleric.  The whole prime requisite concept seems like it came from Gary Gygax, not Dave Arneson.  First, the wording itself, "prime requisite," sounds like a term Gygax would come up with, rather than Arneson.  Second, the fact that the First Fantasy Campaign of Arneson is completely silent on the matter.  Third, Arneson's Adventures in Fantasy doesn't have a prime requisite system either.  Fourth, prime requisites are a small addition that Gygax could add without the risk of "messing up" the core systems of D&D inherited from Blackmoor.  Fifth, the concept of prime requisites is clearly understood and explained well by the author of OD&D (Gygax), unlike some of the other concepts that we know he inherited from Blackmoor (such as Hit Dice). 

Given the above reasons, I believe we can safely assume Gygax added the prime requisite system.  To make the prime requisite system work, Gygax would have to map 1 ability score to each character class: Fighter, Magic-User, Cleric.  Fighter and Magic-User are straightforward- he just used Strength and Brains (renamed to Intelligence) from Blackmoor.  With the Cleric, Gygax would have to be more creative.  Lets look at the remaining ability score choices from Pete Gaylord's character sheet:

Looks
Credibility
Sex
Health
Courage
Cunning

Of the six remaining stats, which maps best to a Cleric?  Clearly, Cunning is the best choice among the remaining six choices.  Lets say Gygax initially shoehorned "cunning" in as the prime requisite of a Cleric.  That allowed him to complete the rules for the addition of his prime requisite system.

However, cunning doesn't really fit as the kind of wisdom a Cleric would possess.   As Locke said, "cunning is the ape of wisdom," and as Bacon said, "We take cunning for a sinister or crooked wisdom."  I suggest here that at some point following the release of "Beyond This Point be Dragons," Gygax added Wisdom so as to have an ability that properly aligns with the Cleric, in the same way that Strength aligns with a Fighting man and Intelligence aligns with a Magic-user.

Note that Wisdom is not used for any other purpose in OD&D other than as the prime requisite for Clerics.

Note that Wisdom does not appear in any Arneson's Blackmoor character sheets from prior to OD&D, nor does it appear in Arneson's Adventures in Fantasy after OD&D.

Dexterity, however, is used to add a +1 bonus or -1 penalty to missile fire, and it seems that other purposes were intended (perhaps via Arneson) but not fleshed out by Gygax:

Dexterity applies to both manual speed and conjuration. It will indicate the character's missile ability and speed with actions such as firing first, getting off a spell, etc.

Note also what John Snider mentioned about the original combat system in Blackmoor in Dan Bogg's excellent interview here:

Saving ... I remember that this was a mitigator on how bad the hit hurt or how much damage you inflicted. Yes, armor and (if rem right) agility (or whatever we called it back there) were both mitigators, as was level.

I suggest here that John is remembering the use of Cunning to mitigate damage in the original Blackmoor campaign.

When you take a look at Arneson's Adventures in Fantasy game, Wisdom is conspicuously absent.  If Arneson originally had an ability such as Cunning that mapped to Wisdom, why wouldn't he restore it when he did Adventures in Fantasy?  If Cunning instead maps to Dexterity, however, Adventures in Fantasy has Dexterity (in place of Cunning).

I also suspect Arneson felt Wisdom was redundant with Intelligence, particularly since Adventures in Fantasy only has two classes (fighter and wizard), just like his Blackmoor campaign originally had.  Recall that the original description of Wisdom in OD&D says little else other than "Wisdom is the prime requisite for Clerics" and "Wisdom rating will act much as does that for intelligence," so already here we see an admission by Gygax that it is somewhat redundant, seemingly existing for the sole purpose of acting as a prime requisite ability score that is unique to Clerics in OD&D, just as Strength is unique to Fighters and Intelligence is unique to Magic-users.

Lastly, the fact that Cunning seems to be have been changed to Dexterity during play-testing of OD&D seems to make sense.  First, Cunning has two forms, an adjective form and a noun form, and the connotations are different.  This may have caused confusion during the play-test.  Also, some play-testers likely took offense to Cunning being the prime requisite of Clerics-- at least it would seem inappropriate for a typical good-aligned Cleric.  By changing Cunning to Dexterity, which has only a noun form, the first problem is eliminated.  The second problem is eliminated by adding a new Wisdom score as an appropriate prime requisite to Clerics.  The fact that Wisdom has no other purpose in OD&D other than as a prime requisite to Clerics seems to support this conclusion.

The table below compares the abilities appearing in Blackmoor, Beyond This Point Be Dragons, OD&D, and Adventures in Fantasy.  Rob Kuntz suggested that the Misc. stat became Cunning and this does seem reasonable given how frequently Dexterity is used to adjudicate physical activity, and with cunning being broader still, this makes good sense.  Further evidence for this progression from Misc->Cunning->Dexterity is the fact that there is no overlap (Gaylord's sheet doesn't contain Misc and Cunning, only Cunning).  So I have arranged the table that way.

[Deleted]

This makes a lot of sense to me. Shame that BTPBD is buried away and likely to remain so forever, 70+ years from now to be public domain is essentially forever, and I figure the way things are going copyright will become permanent in the future.

[derv]

Does "Cunning" sound like a valuable ability applicable to archers? Sounds more like a catch all for intrigue and double dealing or strategizing to me.

[Deleted]

Jun 13, 2017 5:26:00 GMT -6 derv said:

Does "Cunning" sound like a valuable ability applicable to archers? Sounds more like a catch all for intrigue and double dealing or strategizing to me.

I think it goes back to the definition of cunning noted above of which I feel certain that both Arneson and Gygax knew those definitions.

[howandwhy99]

What if... (purely what if)

Cunning = Wisdom (an Ability Score)
Courage = Morale (an NPC score)
Health = Hit Points

It really depends on what it means in the game system, doesn't it? Not a dictionary definition. It's not like King or Queen from Chess can be found in a dictionary. (Prior to publication, I mean)

[18 Spears]

Jun 13, 2017 11:01:43 GMT -6 howandwhy99 said:

What if... (purely what if)

Cunning = Wisdom (an Ability Score)
Courage = Morale (an NPC score)
Health = Hit Points

It really depends on what it means in the game system, doesn't it? Not a dictionary definition. It's not like King or Queen from Chess can be found in a dictionary. (Prior to publication, I mean)

wat?!? thats outragous! you'uns have runed my child hood! shame!!!!! lol!

actually you'uns have a good idea

[derv]

@theperilousdreamer and Cedgewick, it's an interesting idea and if you would have thrown the name of Robin Hood around I might have hedged a bit. But, I don't think "cunning" as "dexterity" would have been a common notion of the word in the 60's-70's regardless of whether a noun or adjective. As a wargamer how would you use and understand the word cunning?

[Deleted]

Jun 12, 2017 18:21:10 GMT -6 Cedgewick said:

If ability scores were used for task resolution, it would seem there should be some ability score for adjudicating dodging, balancing, aiming, catching, throwing, slipping, etc... these kinds of basic physical activities seem to be the perfect use of ability scores.

Dodging is represented as hit points and aiming/throwing by your hit dice (with modifiers for races that are particularly good at these sorts of things), the rest can be easily handled as saving throws.

One of the things I most noticed about the very old character sheets, both Magarry's and Gaylord's, is that what we think of as ability scores were listed along with what we today would consider skills with no clear line separating the two. In fact, they appear to be generated and used exactly the same. What I'm suggesting that we have become so accustomed to games making a clear mechanical distinction between "abilities" and "skills" that we automatically see that distinction in whatever we are looking at when, perhaps, that distinction wasn't really present.

David Magarry's sheet lists things in this order: Brains, Leadership, Woodcraft, Courage, Riding, Sailing, Strength, Throwing, Sex, Looks, Health, Flying, Loyalty, Misc.

Peter Gaylord's was listed as such: Brains, Looks, Credibility, Sex, Health, Strength, Courage, Horsemanship, Woodsmanship, Leadership, Flying, Seamanship, Cunning

Not only are things we considered ability scores mixed right in with skills, but it also shows just how sloppy Arneson was with his terminology. A fact that makes it doubly difficult to figure out what he was doing behind the screen.

[Cedgewick]

Jun 13, 2017 20:54:53 GMT -6 @hedgehobbit said:

What I'm suggesting that we have become so accustomed to games making a clear mechanical distinction between "abilities" and "skills" that we automatically see that distinction in whatever we are looking at when, perhaps, that distinction wasn't really present.

I added a table to the original post with all of the abilities and skills present. Note that we may not know what is a skill or ability in the Blackmoor sheets, but maybe that doesn't matter. The ones that eventually become abilities in OD&D are mostly obvious. Only the ones that become wisdom or dexterity need to be identified, and most traits (like sailing, woodcraft, etc..). can be eliminated. Reread my post, I made a lot of edits to merge my posts and clean up my arguments, see if it is more sensible now.

[increment]

Jun 12, 2017 18:21:10 GMT -6 Cedgewick said:

If ability scores were used for task resolution, it would seem there should be some ability score for adjudicating dodging, balancing, aiming, catching, throwing, slipping, etc... these kinds of basic physical activities seem to be the perfect use of ability scores.

I don't know of any reason to think ability scores were used for task resolution in Blackmoor in this era.

The whole prime requisite concept seems like it came from Gary Gygax, not Dave Arneson.

That I do agree with.

Of the six remaining stats, which maps best to a Cleric?  Clearly, Cunning is the best choice among the remaining six choices.  Lets say Gygax initially shoehorned "cunning" in as the prime requisite of a Cleric.  That allowed him to complete the rules for the addition of his prime requisite system.

Broadly, I think this is a reasonable line of argument, and I have seen a transitional character sheet that suggests that neither Wisdom nor Dexterity mapped cleanly to Cunning.

I would still say though that by the time of the Dalluhn Manuscript, any shoehorning had pretty much happened, and that in that sense, the version of Cunning it presents is still the obvious prototype for Wisdom.

[Deleted]

Jun 13, 2017 14:32:21 GMT -6 derv said:

@theperilousdreamer and Cedgewick, it's an interesting idea and if you would have thrown the name of Robin Hood around I might have hedged a bit. But, I don't think "cunning" as "dexterity" would have been a common notion of the word in the 60's-70's regardless of whether a noun or adjective. As a wargamer how would you use and understand the word cunning?

I will have to disagree with you here. I was a kid in the 60's and started high school the fall of '69 and every new word I ran into I looked up in the dictionary and even in elementary school in a very poor rural school system I had access to multiple dictionaries, so I have no trouble believing that highly literate people like Arneson and Gygax knew exactly the meaning of "cunning."

[Cedgewick]

Jun 14, 2017 6:15:33 GMT -6 increment said:

I don't know of any reason to think ability scores were used for task resolution in Blackmoor in this era.

Svenson divided the uses of ability scores between “task resolution” and “adjustments for combat”. I think its quite obvious that nearly all of the ability scores were not used for “adjustments for combat”. Now for “task resolution,” I listed several things that a Dexterity check might be used for in D&D. “Cunning” is pretty broad and abstract, as is “misc”. Clearly they were used to resolve that a character could attempt and either succeed or fail at something, some task. What other use is there for such a score? An opposed roll with another character? The fact that a numerical value is present signals a comparison is being made; I don't think it is unreasonable to assume they were used to determine success of failure of a task.

I have seen a transitional character sheet that suggests that neither Wisdom nor Dexterity mapped cleanly to Cunning.

You should elaborate here by listing the abilities it showed or otherwise explain your statement. The continued use of “I have fancy sources that I will neither share with you nor tell you what is written in them” is not professional for a scholar.

I would still say though that by the time of the Dalluhn Manuscript, any shoehorning had pretty much happened, and that in that sense, the version of Cunning it presents is still the obvious prototype for Wisdom.

Again, you offer no support for this statement. Why bother posting at all?  It seems like you just want to kill this thread with your authority rather than contribute intelligently to the conversation.

[aldarron]

Some very interesting observations there. I don't think its a compelling case for cunning to be dexterity, though. I think the use of the terms in question is really fairly simple. There are numerous examples of Gygax improving/altering his word choices over time, and I think he simply thought wisdom sounded better than cunning.

I don't make any distinction between "ability" or "skill" or "trait" scores. Those words are interchangeable to me, as I'm sure they were to Gygax and Arneson in 1973. Gygax merely boiled down Arneson's list and changed it from 2d6 to 3d6. I think the "invention" of Dexterity was just a recognition somewhere down the line that the eye/hand categories on Arneson's lists weren't well represented in Gygax's playtest docs.

Historically, it is somewhat doubtful if "cunning" came from Arneson at all. It was not one of the original terms on Gaylord's sheet and not on any of Megarry's. Cunning was added in pen, onto Gaylords sheet sometime late in the process, quite probably at the same time his scores were "updated" from 2d6 to 3d6. It is particularly telling that three of his scores - the three with the least direct D&D analogs - (credibility, sex, and courage) are not updated to 3d6 while those with direct analogs in BTPBD (strength, Health, Brains, and Looks) are updated to 3d6. That tells me that the addition of cunning and the new scores probably happened during the D&D test phase and that cunning was added because it was a "new" category Gygax had put into the playtest rules.

As for "Miscellaneous", Megarry has made it clear that that was simply a default category for anything that might come up that wasn't already covered.

[increment]

Jun 14, 2017 8:14:06 GMT -6 Cedgewick said:

Why bother posting at all?  It seems like you just want to kill this thread with your authority rather than contribute intelligently to the conversation.

Actually, I posted in this thread to say some positive things about your analysis, pretty much, which seems pretty far from trying to kill it. Except on this minor point:

Now for “task resolution,” I listed several things that a Dexterity check might be used for in D&D. “Cunning” is pretty broad and abstract, as is “misc”. Clearly they were used to resolve that a character could attempt and either succeed or fail at something, some task.

I don't think there is any evidence I'm aware of that makes this clear.

[increment]

Jun 14, 2017 8:25:28 GMT -6 aldarron said:

Cunning was added in pen, onto Gaylords sheet sometime late in the process, quite probably at the same time his scores were "updated" from 2d6 to 3d6. It is particularly telling that three of his scores - the three with the least direct D&D analogs - (credibility, sex, and courage) are not updated to 3d6 while those with direct analogs in BTPBD (strength, Health, Brains, and Looks) are updated to 3d6.

Hmm. Is "updating" to 3d6 what happened there? Or did the scores just increase for some other reason, maybe in-game means, and happen to exceed 12?

Though as you say it is telling that it is the ones with the most direct analogs in Dalluhn that were increased... and yes it is clearly the same pen. And the Cunning value is a likely 3d6 roll. Huh.

[Cedgewick]

Jun 14, 2017 8:34:38 GMT -6 increment said:

You have the opportunity here to tell us what was on the transitional character sheet and get some intelligent thoughts on the matter. I'm not really clear on why you feel the need to hide what is on this character sheet from us.

[Cedgewick]

Jun 14, 2017 8:25:28 GMT -6 aldarron said:

it is somewhat doubtful if "cunning" came from Arneson at all. It was not one of the original terms on Gaylord's sheet and not on any of Megarry's. Cunning was added in pen, onto Gaylords sheet sometime late in the process, quite probably at the same time his scores were "updated" from 2d6 to 3d6. It is particularly telling that three of his scores - the three with the least direct D&D analogs - (credibility, sex, and courage) are not updated to 3d6 while those with direct analogs in BTPBD (strength, Health, Brains, and Looks) are updated to 3d6. That tells me that the addition of cunning and the new scores probably happened during the D&D test phase and that cunning was added because it was a "new" category Gygax had put into the playtest rules.

I like your logical reasoning here that Cunning was added around the time Gygax became involved due to the same edit on Gaylord's character sheet also involving the seeming conversion from 2d6 to 3d6 (do we know for sure this was post-Gygax's involvement?)  Lets for a moment assume it was Gygax who added it.  The question would then be, toward what end did he add it?  The only reason with any support is that he added it to provide a Cleric with a prime requisite unique to that class.  Look at the description for Wisdom on the 3 lbbs (which would be Cunning originally):

Wisdom is the prime requisite for Clerics. It may be used on a 3 for 1 basis by fighters, and on a 2 for 1 basis by Magic-Users, in their respective prime requisite areas. Wisdom rating will act much as does that for intelligence.

What is he saying here?  About the only thing he says is that its the prime requisite for Clerics.  The other point at the end seems an admission that it is somewhat redundant.  There is no other use mentioned in the 3 lbbs for Wisdom.  So I think it would be logical then to say that, since Cunning became Wisdom, that if Gygax added Cunning, he would have added it for the same narrow reason, to provide a prime requisite for the Cleric.  We know Gygax had a great command of language.  Why would he initially choose the word "Cunning," which has all kinds of lowly and underhanded connotations, as the prime requisite for the Cleric, particularly when the level titles, the spells, the undead turning, etc... of the Cleric all suggest a primarily benevolent role for the character?

Additionally, consider this: the word "cunning" doesn't appear in the 3 lbbs at all, which we know Gygax wrote.  However, it appears twice in Arneson's Adventures in Fantasy:

Of the races of Faerry the Faerries are the most benevolent and at the same time the most involved with humans. They reward friendly behavior towards them generously and repay wrongs
committed against them savagely and with great cunning.

The lords of trolldom are slightly larger than human size. They are highly cunning and fond of both treasure and human women.

Cunning appeared in BTPBD but not in OD&D, and we know BTPBD has more of Arneson's fingerprints on it than OD&D.  All this suggests that Cunning is more likely to have come from Arneson than Gygax.  Yet it seems nearly certain that Gygax added the prime requisite system, which provides the only reason with any support that Wisdom was added.  Recall also that Wisdom was specifically removed by Arneson when he later did Adventures in Fantasy, where he kept all 5 of the other abilities from D&D.  Therefore we have Cunning likely coming from Arneson and Wisdom likely coming from Gygax.  How do we reconcile this?

[Deleted]

Jun 14, 2017 0:47:01 GMT -6 Cedgewick said:

I added a table to the original post with all of the abilities and skills present.

Where I would disagree with your table is that Charisma combines aspects of Looks, Leadership, Sex, and Loyalty. I don't see ability scores so much as Gygax culling unneeded skills, but, instead, combining all the things that Dave used into a smaller set that covered all the bases. You also see meanings shift, such as how Intelligence was used as willpower in the FFC/OD&D magic sword rules but "will power" is listed as one of the aspects of Wisdom in AD&D.


Finally, I found this on biblestudy.com:

In Bible-English "cunning" means always "wise" or "skilful"; the word does not occur in the bad sense, and it is found in the Old Testament only. The chief Hebrew words are chakham, "wise," "skilful" (2 Chronicles 2:7 the King James Version "a man cunning to work in gold"; 2 Chronicles 2:13; Isaiah 3:3 the King James Version, etc.); chashabh, "to think," "devise," "desire" (Exodus 26:1,31; 28:6,15 the King James Version, etc.). We have also da`ath, "knowledge" (1 Kings 7:14 the King James Version); bin, "to be intelligent" (1 Chronicles 25:7 the King James Version); machasbebheth, "thought," "device," "design" (Exodus 31:4; 35:33,15 the King James Version); 'aman, "artificer" (Song of Solomon 7:1 the King James Version); yadha`, "to know," once translated "cunning" (Daniel 1:4 the King James Version).

For cunning the American Standard Revised Version gives "skilful" (Exodus 31:4, etc.; Isaiah 3:3 "expert"); for "cunning work" the work of the "skilful workman" (Exodus 26:1,31, etc., the English Revised Version "cunning workman"); for "curious," "skilfully woven," the English Revised Version "cunningly woven" (Exodus 28:8, etc.).

It doesn't seem unreasonable that Gary would use a term associated with the old testament to describe Clerics. Of course, this is further evidence that the term originated with Gygax.

[Deleted]

Jun 14, 2017 12:30:08 GMT -6 @hedgehobbit said:

Jun 14, 2017 0:47:01 GMT -6 Cedgewick said:

I added a table to the original post with all of the abilities and skills present.

Where I would disagree with your table is that Charisma combines aspects of Looks, Leadership, Sex, and Loyalty. I don't see ability scores so much as Gygax culling unneeded skills, but, instead, combining all the things that Dave used into a smaller set that covered all the bases. You also see meanings shift, such as how Intelligence was used as willpower in the FFC/OD&D magic sword rules but "will power" is listed as one of the aspects of Wisdom in AD&D.


Finally, I found this on biblestudy.com:

In Bible-English "cunning" means always "wise" or "skilful"; the word does not occur in the bad sense, and it is found in the Old Testament only. The chief Hebrew words are chakham, "wise," "skilful" (2 Chronicles 2:7 the King James Version "a man cunning to work in gold"; 2 Chronicles 2:13; Isaiah 3:3 the King James Version, etc.); chashabh, "to think," "devise," "desire" (Exodus 26:1,31; 28:6,15 the King James Version, etc.). We have also da`ath, "knowledge" (1 Kings 7:14 the King James Version); bin, "to be intelligent" (1 Chronicles 25:7 the King James Version); machasbebheth, "thought," "device," "design" (Exodus 31:4; 35:33,15 the King James Version); 'aman, "artificer" (Song of Solomon 7:1 the King James Version); yadha`, "to know," once translated "cunning" (Daniel 1:4 the King James Version).

For cunning the American Standard Revised Version gives "skilful" (Exodus 31:4, etc.; Isaiah 3:3 "expert"); for "cunning work" the work of the "skilful workman" (Exodus 26:1,31, etc., the English Revised Version "cunning workman"); for "curious," "skilfully woven," the English Revised Version "cunningly woven" (Exodus 28:8, etc.).

It doesn't seem unreasonable that Gary would use a term associated with the old testament to describe Clerics. Of course, this is further evidence that the term originated with Gygax.

However, Gygax did not come up with the idea of Clerics. Also "a man cunning to work in gold," "skilful workman," "skilfully woven," and "cunningly woven" would all refer to things that require superior dexterity, i.e. eye-hand coordination. I don't think this furthers the argument against "cunning" tracking to "dexerity."

[Cedgewick]

Jun 14, 2017 8:25:28 GMT -6 aldarron said:

it is somewhat doubtful if "cunning" came from Arneson at all. It was not one of the original terms on Gaylord's sheet and not on any of Megarry's. Cunning was added in pen, onto Gaylords sheet sometime late in the process, quite probably at the same time his scores were "updated" from 2d6 to 3d6. It is particularly telling that three of his scores - the three with the least direct D&D analogs - (credibility, sex, and courage) are not updated to 3d6 while those with direct analogs in BTPBD (strength, Health, Brains, and Looks) are updated to 3d6. That tells me that the addition of cunning and the new scores probably happened during the D&D test phase and that cunning was added because it was a "new" category Gygax had put into the playtest rules.

How about another possibility: Arneson added cunning. Lets look at the evidence:

1) Cunning is on a character sheet from Arneson's Blackmoor campaign

2) Arneson uses Cunning in Adventures in Fantasy twice; Gygax doesn't use the term at all in OD&D

3) The cunning ability score appears in BTPBD, which has a lot of Arneson in it. Perhaps it appears elsewhere in BTPBD?

4) if Gary had been the one to add Cunning, he most likely would have added it, like I argue above, to provide an ability score for the Cleric for use with the prime requisite system, there being no other purpose for Wisdom (Cunning) in the entire text of OD&D. Yet Gygax would almost certainly had chosen "Wisdom" or at least another word with different connotations than "cunning" if it was solely for use as a prime requisite for Clerics. To Hedgehobbit's argument about Cunning its use in the Bible, I would then ask why would Gygax shortly thereafter change it to Wisdom, if he had initially chosen Cunning because it was tailored to the Cleric?

EDIT: I asked Rob Kuntz about it and he responded:

there was no Cunning in the playtests, they are the stats as listed in the [final manuscript], so it doesn't matter about the [BTPBD manuscript], really. We never had cunning, that's all Arneson's.

If Arneson added Cunning, then we can make a lot more sense of the Prime Requisite system's use of it as the prime requisite of Clerics. The order of what happened would be:

1) Arneson adds Cunning and changes personality traits from 2d6 to 3d6 in the Blackmoor campaign at the same time he adds Cunning.

2) Gygax adds the prime requisite system. To make it work, he needs to map an ability to the Cleric. He chooses Arneson's Cunning and completes the system, which appears in the Beyond This Point Be Dragons manuscript.

3) Either Gygax has regrets or the playtesters complain about Cunning being the prime requisite of Clerics. Gygax renames Cunning to Wisdom. Around the same time he also adds Dexterity.

There are two sticking points for me here:
1) the frequent use of the very specific word "Dexterity" in the definition of Cunning. Look at the definitions above. Its not agility, nimbleness, deftness, quickness, adroitness, or so on, but very specifically the word "Dexterity" among multiple dictionaries. If Gygax was looking for a word to substitute for Cunning (just as he did for Brains and Health, perhaps in this case because of the adjective/noun confusion with Cunning), and he consulted a dictionary, he would probably encounter the words "skill" and "dexterity". "skill" is obviously too broad, but "dexterity" would perfectly solve the adjective/noun problem with Cunning. It seems too much of a coincidence considering cunning and dexterity both appear as abilities at different times, and never together.

2) Why wouldn't Arneson restore Cunning when he did Adventures in Fantasy? He took out only Wisdom among the 6 ability scores from D&D. If he came up with Cunning as it seems from above, and Gygax renamed it to Wisdom, why wouldn't Arneson just restore the term to Cunning instead of excising it from AiF completely? You will note that he restored Health from Blackmoor when he did AiF after OD&D.

[increment]

Not that I have a clear idea about who introduced "cunning" to the game, but...

Jun 14, 2017 13:21:55 GMT -6 Cedgewick said:

Lets look at the evidence:
1) Cunning is on a character sheet from Arneson's Blackmoor campaign

We all agree on that.

2) Arneson uses Cunning in Adventures in Fantasy twice; Gygax doesn't use the term at all in OD&D

I don't think that matters much. "Cunning" appears in the PHB, which ostensibly Gygax largely wrote. "Thieves use cunning, nimbleness, and stealth," say. Or "Thieves are principally meant to take by cunning and stealth." The PHB came out before AiF. And "cunning" appears in Holmes Basic, say, before the PHB. More to the core point, it's not like Gygax was unaware of the word "cunning" at the relevant time, and its presence or absence from later documents these guys were involved with doesn't seem to move the needle.

Also, I would characterize AiF too as a document that Arneson "ostensibly" largely wrote, and be more cautious about ascribing any particular passage in it to him.

3) The cunning ability score appears in BTPBD, which has a lot of Arneson in it. Perhaps it appears elsewhere in BTPBD?

"Cunning" appears in drafts of D&D that predate the Dalluhn Manuscript, including an earlier draft that was certainly produced by Gygax. It is not exclusive to some set of Arneson offshoot drafts (granting for the moment that's how we should understand Dalluhn).

4) if Gary had been the one to add Cunning, he most likely would have added it, like I argue above, to provide an ability score for the Cleric for use with the prime requisite system, there being no other purpose for Wisdom (Cunning) in the entire text of OD&D. Yet Gygax would almost certainly had chosen "Wisdom" or at least another word with different connotations than "cunning" if it was solely for use as a prime requisite for Clerics. To Hedgehobbit's argument about Cunning its use in the Bible, I would then ask why would Gygax shortly thereafter change it to Wisdom, if he had initially chosen Cunning because it was tailored to the Cleric?

This last point does seem a bit odd, that he would change his mind about what to call it if he had introduced it. But I mean, it's much not weirder than changing Health to Constitution, I guess. Maybe when he moved from five attributes to six he decided to give the abilities more thoughtful names. Lots of the names of things changed from the 1973 drafts to OD&D. So while it's weird, it's not weird enough to convince me of anything in particular.

[Cedgewick]

Jun 14, 2017 14:05:44 GMT -6 increment said:

"Cunning" appears in drafts of D&D that predate the Dalluhn Manuscript, including an earlier draft that was certainly produced by Gygax.

Are you trying to provoke me? What, pray tell, is this "earlier draft" you are now teasing us with?  If you are referring to the Mornard fragments, why not just say that?

Jun 14, 2017 14:05:44 GMT -6 increment said:

This last point does seem a bit odd, that he would change his mind about what to call it if he had introduced it. But I mean, it's much not weirder than changing Health to Constitution, I guess.

That's not nearly the same thing, given that Gygax didn't introduce Health, but inherited the term from Blackmoor.  I would argue that its much weirder for someone with a command of language like Gygax to specifically select "Cunning" for the prime requisite of Clerics in the first place, let alone then shortly thereafter revise it to "Wisdom".  And according to Rob, this wouldn't have happened in the playtests, which suggests that Gygax himself decided to change it without outside pressure from the playtesters disliking "cunning" clerics. 

Why is it not at least just as reasonable that Arneson's Cunning became Gygax's Dexterity (given that the definitions of Cunning are littered with the word) and Gygax added Wisdom to better fit as the Cleric prime requisite?  It would also explain why Arneson chose not to revive Cunning for AiF- it was already there in the form of Dexterity.

Lets assume Cunning came from Arneson for a moment. An interesting consequence becomes apparent: the Gaylord sheet would certainly seem to indicate that Arneson added Cunning and 3d6 at around the same time; hence, if Arneson added Cunning, we are then lead to believe he added 3d6 ability scores as well.  Were these changes just prior to Gygax's involvement?

Jun 14, 2017 14:05:44 GMT -6 increment said:

Lots of the names of things changed from the 1973 drafts to OD&D.

I note the plural on drafts.  Mornard fragments and BTPBD?  Or are you again teasing us with some third pre-D&D manuscript you have yet to announce?

Edit: actually you mentioned "'Cunning' appears in drafts of D&D that predate the Dalluhn Manuscript."  As far as I am aware, there is only the Mornard fragments, which might considered one manuscript.  So what is the second manuscript that predates the BTPBD manuscript?

[Cedgewick]

Jun 14, 2017 14:05:44 GMT -6 increment said:

"Cunning" appears in the PHB, which ostensibly Gygax largely wrote. "Thieves use cunning, nimbleness, and stealth," say. Or "Thieves are principally meant to take by cunning and stealth."

Actually this is another reason to think Arneson came up with Cunning. Gygax's use of the word twice in the description of thieves shows he strongly associates it with thieves, and this is not surprising in the least. The problem comes when one tries to say that Gygax added Cunning to Arneson's personality traits. If Gygax was the one that added Cunning, and it became Wisdom as is the current prevailing theory, then Gygax first added it to serve as the prime requisite of Clerics (there being no other use for Cunning/Wisdom in the manuscripts), then shortly after changed it to Wisdom. Yet here in the thief description we see Gygax's strong association of "cunning" with thieves. Would he really have specifically chosen "cunning", then, as his best choice, even initially, for the name of the prime requisite of Clerics?

[Deleted]

Jun 14, 2017 14:48:08 GMT -6 Cedgewick said:

Jun 14, 2017 14:05:44 GMT -6 increment said:

"Cunning" appears in drafts of D&D that predate the Dalluhn Manuscript, including an earlier draft that was certainly produced by Gygax.

Are you trying to provoke me? What, pray tell, is this "earlier draft" you are now teasing us with?  If you are referring to the Mornard fragments, why not just say that?

Let me be a little more direct here, increment, it appears that you are stating that you have more than one draft of D&D that predates the Dalluhn Manuscript. One of those would be I assume the Mornard fragments if they predate Dalluhn Manuscript which I don't know if they do or not, so what are the others and where did they come from. Please list all drafts that you have and how many pages each one is, where it came from and where in the time line you think it falls and who you think wrote it.

Jun 14, 2017 14:48:08 GMT -6 Cedgewick said:

Jun 14, 2017 14:05:44 GMT -6 increment said:

Lots of the names of things changed from the 1973 drafts to OD&D.

I note the plural on drafts.  Mornard fragments and BTPBD?  Or are you again teasing us with some third pre-D&D manuscript you have yet to announce?

How many pre-D&D manuscripts are there and and are any of them the Arneson notes? It sounds like you have been holding out on us! Are you writing a new book that you haven't told us about yet?!

[derv]

Jun 14, 2017 6:54:03 GMT -6 @theperilousdreamer said:

Jun 13, 2017 14:32:21 GMT -6 derv said:

@theperilousdreamer and Cedgewick, it's an interesting idea and if you would have thrown the name of Robin Hood around I might have hedged a bit. But, I don't think "cunning" as "dexterity" would have been a common notion of the word in the 60's-70's regardless of whether a noun or adjective. As a wargamer how would you use and understand the word cunning?

I will have to disagree with you here. I was a kid in the 60's and started high school the fall of '69 and every new word I ran into I looked up in the dictionary and even in elementary school in a very poor rural school system I had access to multiple dictionaries, so I have no trouble believing that highly literate people like Arneson and Gygax knew exactly the meaning of "cunning."

I'm not suggesting that they couldn't have known the full spectrum of the meaning of the word. What I'm saying is that the culture of the time had an implied understanding of it that would have out weighed any nuances. We're talking about a game whose creators were heavily influenced by pulp, comic books, B-movies, and war games. I don't actually see a meaningful connection of the word cunning for either wisdom or dexterity. I'm thinking Evel Knievel (1974 failed Snake River Canyon jump, Get Smart (1965-70), MASH (72-83) & the end of the Vietnam War(73-75), Disco, James Bond with Sean Connery (62-71) & Roger Moore (73-85), etc. I mean we're not saying, those are some cunning moves John, in Saturday Night Fever (1979). Can you dig it? (Sol Yurick, The Warriors, 1965)

[increment]

Jun 14, 2017 16:12:27 GMT -6 @theperilousdreamer said:

Let me be a little more direct here, increment , it appears that you are stating that you have more than one draft of D&D that predates the Dalluhn Manuscript. One of those would be I assume the Mornard fragments if they predate Dalluhn Manuscript which I don't know if they do or not, so what are the others and where did they come from. Please list all drafts that you have and how many pages each one is, where it came from and where in the time line you think it falls and who you think wrote it.

A bit of a multi-part question there.

So just to talk about this in general terms, the Mornard Fragments is a set of photocopies excerpted from a larger D&D draft. Gygax gave those photocopies to Mike before he left for the Twin Cities at the end of the summer of 1973, presumably to help him run the game in his new home. The original larger draft weighed in at about 100 pages double spaced, and we might suppose it corresponds to the 100 page draft that Gygax sometimes mentioned in his later recollections of the development of D&D. Let's call that larger draft "Guidon" D&D. It was perhaps the earliest complete draft, though the photocopies of it that Mike received feature a number of hand corrections that date from a later time than when GD&D was first typed up.

The GD&D "base text" (the typed part, before the hand corrections) does use Cunning and the other abilities that appear in Dalluhn. I think there is strong evidence that Dalluhn derived from GD&D - and that the derivation was direct, likely without much by way of intermediary drafts. Dalluhn incorporated many hand corrections - both from Gygax and Arneson - that were circulating in GD&D in the Twin Cities at the time. Dalluhn however has some significant variances from GD&D in other areas, which likely derived from Twin Cities folks.

I do think at least one other Twin Cities draft also derived from GD&D, a draft which was circulated for playtesting there, but which did not incorporate the "variances" displayed in Dalluhn. Because it is much closer to GD&D (with incorporated hand corrections), it seems likely that this draft also predated Dalluhn. Its page count is much shorter because it is single-spaced rather than double-spaced: not an editing draft, but a draft for people to use. Page counts aren't useful data points on their own.

Dalluhn remains one of the harder nuts to crack in all of this. There's still plenty I don't know about it.

I will have some more to say about all this pretty soon.

[increment]

Jun 14, 2017 16:04:11 GMT -6 Cedgewick said:

If Gygax was the one that added Cunning, and it became Wisdom as is the current prevailing theory, then Gygax first added it to serve as the prime requisite of Clerics (there being no other use for Cunning/Wisdom in the manuscripts), then shortly after changed it to Wisdom. Yet here in the thief description we see Gygax's strong association of "cunning" with thieves. Would he really have specifically chosen "cunning", then, as his best choice, even initially, for the name of the prime requisite of Clerics?

I think the drafts of D&D were just that, drafts. People threw out half-baked ideas, and maybe they were a bit more fully baked later. They did not apply an amount of brainpower to these decisions at the time anything remotely like what we apply to analyzing the decisions in retrospect.

[Zenopus]

Jun 14, 2017 20:07:01 GMT -6 increment said:

I will have some more to say about all this pretty soon.

Looking forward to reading this!

[Cedgewick]

Here are the manuscripts known to exist plus the new ones Increment seems to have:

[increment]

I might draw it a bit differently, but for the matter at hand, this adequately demonstrates the problem with identifying where Cunning (and 3d6) entered the picture. It could have come from original Arneson notes, or from Gygax's early drafts. The point being, Cunning was there before Dalluhn, anyway, and is not exclusive to Dalluhn.