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Post by foxroe on Feb 14, 2017 6:39:02 GMT -6
Starting digging into her sordid past this weekend, and I was a bit disappointed. It seems much of what one can find on the internet, that is accepted as "canon", comes from post-Gygax-era TSR sources.
So, I'd like to field a few questions about the Witch-Queen of Perrenland and how Gary viewed her, and hopefully some learned individuals can set me straight. My intention is to use her in my campaign, but I want her to be as "pure" as possible (if that makes sense).
What I believe to be the list of "Gygaxian" facts (mostly from S4):
- She is inspired by the crone Louhi of Finnish legend
- She was an exceptionally powerful Archmage, specializing in Demonology
- She apprenticed with Baba Yaga, under the name Tasha
- Her alternate name of Tasha (and the laughter spell of the same name) were inspired by letters to Gary from a young girl Just the spell; no association with Iggwilv
- She discovered the location of the Caverns of Tsojcanth/Tsojconth and established her HQ at the Horn of Iggwilv in the Yatils
- She wrote the Demonomicon
- She had a vampire daughter named Drelnza of unknown paternity
- She is a lover/enemy of the Demon Prince Graz'zt - Iuz is their son
- Raised an army and attacked Perrenland, ruling for only about 10 years or so before the battle with Graz'zt
- She is destroyed by Graz'zt after he escapes her control (maybe*)
Is that it, or are there other things we know about her prior to Gary losing creative control of Greyhawk?
Did Rob Kuntz and/or other Gygax-era employees have creative input to her story?
Here are some other tidbits, but my belief is that these are all things added much later (3rd/4th edition) - please feel free to correct me:
- She also apprenticed under Xagyg/Zagyg/Zagig and they were intimately involved
- She took part in the imprisonment of Fraz-Urb'luu in Castle Greyhawk
- She stole a demonology text (Tome of Zyx) from the Mad Mage which became the basis for her Demonomicon
- She bound Tsojcanth to her service (thought he was dead?), which was overcome and Tsojcanth weakened her for the battle with Graz'zt
- She was turned into a crone (or split in two?)
- After some time in the slammer (Abyss), she now resides in Hades
In art, she is always depicted as having long inky black hair and a slightly olive(?) complexion, but I also seem to recall her being referred to as having alabaster skin and blonde hair elsewhere? Which is it? Do we know?
Of what origin is she (Baklunish, Flan, Oeridian, Suel)?
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* In WG6 (Isle of the Ape), she is revealed to be alive and rather pissed off that her daughter was killed. IotA was written by Gary, so I'm willing to accept this, but the publication date of WG6 is 1985, which is the time he was hanging out in Hollywood and the year he left TSR. Was IotA published under his purview, or was it possibly edited before publication without his input?
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Post by grodog on Feb 14, 2017 12:16:03 GMT -6
Starting digging into her sordid past this weekend, and I was a bit disappointed. It seems much of what one can find on the internet, that is accepted as "canon", comes from post-Gygax-era TSR sources. Very true, that. These are viable Gygaxian assumptions, IMO: What I believe to be the list of "Gygaxian" facts (mostly from S4): - She is inspired by the crone Louhi of Finnish legend (and I would add Baba Yaga here too, FWIW)- She was an exceptionally powerful Archmage, specializing in Demonology - She discovered the location of the Caverns of Tsojcanth/Tsojconth and established her HQ at the Horn of Iggwilv in the Yatils - She wrote the Demonomicon - She had a vampire daughter named Drelnza of unknown paternity - She is a lover/enemy of the Demon Prince Graz'zt - Iuz is their son - Raised an army and attacked Perrenland, ruling for only about 10 years or so before the battle with Graz'zt - She is destroyed by Graz'zt after he escapes her control (maybe*) These are not: - She apprenticed with Baba Yaga, under the name Tasha - Her alternate name of Tasha (and the laughter spell of the same name) were inspired by letters to Gary from a young girl The inspiration for Tasha is accurate (per EGG's introduction of the new spells in Dragon #67 IIRC), but shouldn't necessarily be applied to Iggwilv at all. Is that it, or are there other things we know about her prior to Gary losing creative control of Greyhawk? There's a lot of additional information from Gary's Gord novels (both the two published by TSR and the subsequent ones from New Infinities). Great summary info from them @ web.archive.org/web/20151011034724/http://home.comcast.net/~chris.s/gordmain.htmlDid Rob Kuntz and/or other Gygax-era employees have creative input to her story? I don't believe so, but don't know for sure on that front. FWIW, Rob did include a version of Tasha in Bottle City. Here are some other tidbits, but my belief is that these are all things added much later (3rd/4th edition) - please feel free to correct me: - She also apprenticed under Xagyg/Zagyg/Zagig and they were intimately involved - She took part in the imprisonment of Fraz-Urb'luu in Castle Greyhawk - She stole a demonology text (Tome of Zyx) from the Mad Mage which became the basis for her Demonomicon - She bound Tsojcanth to her service (thought he was dead?), which was overcome and Tsojcanth weakened her for the battle with Graz'zt - She was turned into a crone (or split in two?) - After some time in the slammer (Abyss), she now resides in Hades A lot of that comes from Gary Holian's creative work on Iggwilv, which first appeared in Greytalk in the 1990s, and was later incorporated into the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer and Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk. In art, she is always depicted as having long inky black hair and a slightly olive(?) complexion, but I also seem to recall her being referred to as having alabaster skin and blonde hair elsewhere? Which is it? Do we know? Of what origin is she (Baklunish, Flan, Oeridian, Suel)? I don't know that we know her origin or definitive appearance, and since she can shapechange as desired, I don't know that we'll ever know for sure. * In WG6 (Isle of the Ape), she is revealed to be alive and rather pissed off that her daughter was killed. IotA was written by Gary, so I'm willing to accept this, but the publication date of WG6 is 1985, which is the time he was hanging out in Hollywood and the year he left TSR. Was IotA published under his purview, or was it possibly edited before publication without his input? I think WG6 was produced under Gary's supervision/management, and it is definitely based on a side-/sub-level from Castle Greyhawk. Allan. |
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Post by foxroe on Feb 14, 2017 17:50:28 GMT -6
The inspiration for Tasha is accurate (per EGG's introduction of the new spells in Dragon #67 IIRC), but shouldn't necessarily be applied to Iggwilv at all. Thank you Allan! Interesting. So the equation Tasha = Iggwilv was pure conjecture on someone's part? I don't have a copy of Bottle City; is there anything in the text possibly hinting at "Tasha" being Iggwilv, or is she a separate entity? |
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Post by foxroe on Feb 14, 2017 17:54:52 GMT -6
Something I neglected to mention in the original post: There was also a point where she was residing in Ket. It is here that she obtained Daoud's Lanthorn, inciting the "angry villager" rule to boot.
I doubt that this was "Gygaxian" in origin.
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Post by foxroe on Feb 14, 2017 18:38:34 GMT -6
An interesting side note: Prior to the publication of the Greyhawk Folio, Perrenland was spelled " Perrunland". Was this perhaps inspired by Perun? Perun is the Slavic deity of Lightning. Very little else is known about early Slavic religion (to my understanding), but the other significant figure in Slavic oral tradition is... Baba Yaga! I have always imagined Perrenland as sort of a Greyhawk version of Switzerland (strong geographical borders, generally neutral and isolationist, cantons, capitol = Schwartzenbruin ["Black Bear"], elite polearm mercenaries = Landsknechte), but now I wonder if Perrenland was intended to be more Baltic/Eastern European in flavor... Perhaps a stretch, but this seemingly relates to Iggwilv's character influences as well (Louhi of Finnish myth and Baba Yaga, as Allan points out above). It would also fit with the Tasha/Natasha pseudonym (assuming Tasha = Iggwilv) and substantiates the Baba Yaga connection. Too left field?  |
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Post by foxroe on Feb 14, 2017 18:44:13 GMT -6
Amusing note: In the link above (to the original convention version of LCoT), Iggwilv is referred to with masculine pronouns and possessives.  |
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Post by grodog on Feb 15, 2017 9:51:43 GMT -6
Interesting. So the equation Tasha = Iggwilv was pure conjecture on someone's part? I don't have a copy of Bottle City; is there anything in the text possibly hinting at "Tasha" being Iggwilv, or is she a separate entity? That's right. The work Gary Holian did on Greytalk (I think, it may have only appeared in Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk, but I assume he first proposed the concept on GT) defined Tasha as an alias for Iggwilv, and created her relationship with Zagig/Zagyg. It looks like Scott Casper's Greytalk Archives blog doesn't have this post included, but there is some additional info about Iggwilv there; see greytalkarchives.blogspot.com/search?q=iggwilv (and you can also search for "ring of five" but there's only one post about that, which was one of Holian's main contributions to Zagig lore IIRC). In Bottle City, Ahsat the "Laughing" Witch is an encounter in the picture gallery, but other than her anagram name, she's not otherwise connected to the Tasha of the Uncontrollable Hideous Laughter spell, or to Iggwilv at all. (Rob has a similar reversed name in Maure Castle too: Arodnap = Pandora). Something I neglected to mention in the original post: There was also a point where she was residing in Ket. It is here that she obtained Daoud's Lanthorn, inciting the "angry villager" rule to boot. I doubt that this was "Gygaxian" in origin. That sounds like post-Gygaxian work too, yes, and likely part and parcel of Gary Holian's previously-mentioned work. An interesting side note: Prior to the publication of the Greyhawk Folio, Perrenland was spelled " Perrunland". Was this perhaps inspired by Perun? I think that Perrenland in the World of Greyhawk as well as Perunland in the original Great Kingdom "Domesday Book" maps are both allusions back to Jeff Perrin of Chainmail fame, and that the spellings were changed in the same spirit of allusive play that characterized much of the early Lake Geneva/Twin Cities gaming. Amusing note: In the link above (to the original convention version of LCoT), Iggwilv is referred to with masculine pronouns and possessives. Indeed, Iggwilv's history in the original tourney background for The Lost Caverns of Tsojconth only makes sense in the context of the original Great Kingdom map, rather than the published WoG maps from the folio and boxed set. I have the background text as well as an encounters comparison between the two versions on my site @ www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/gh_s4.html |
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Post by foxroe on Feb 16, 2017 4:55:29 GMT -6
Great stuff, grodog ! Thanks again for your responses! Doh! Jeff Perrin... it's so obvious! Would you happen to know where the connection to Baba Yaga is first mentioned? I've gone through the early "official" sources (S4, WG6, Gord) and I can find no mention of her, or any apprenticeship/adoption for that matter. Something in the Dragon maybe (still looking through those...)? |
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Post by foxroe on Feb 16, 2017 5:07:55 GMT -6
Following the web archive link from Allan above, here is some more info for those that are interested (WARNING - SPOILERS!). The information is extracted from Gygax's Gord novels (having not read these (yet), I am trusting in the accuracy of the notes):
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Post by foxroe on Feb 16, 2017 5:10:34 GMT -6
Gygax's "The Revenge of Ghorkai" (Mongoose) mentions a demigoddess called "The Mother of Witches", that many suspect is a reference to Iggwilv (the adventure location strongly resembles the Yatils, apparently). Was this ever confirmed?
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Post by grodog on Feb 16, 2017 15:50:32 GMT -6
Would you happen to know where the connection to Baba Yaga is first mentioned? I've gone through the early "official" sources (S4, WG6, Gord) and I can find no mention of her, or any apprenticeship/adoption for that matter. Something in the Dragon maybe (still looking through those...)? I think that this was something also incorporated from Greytalk, although I could be wrong on that front; and it may have been my connection---I've long been interested in Slavic folklore. I don't recall Gary making this connection specifically, but my logic probably went something like this: - DMG artifact = "Ages ago the most powerful female mage ever known spent much of her power in the creation of a magical dwelling of superb character. When she passed to another plane..." = Baba Yaga as greatest female MU - S4/Gord novels = Iggwilv as greatest witch = female MU - Dragon 53 Bogyatyrs of Old Kiev + Dragon 89 "Baba Yaga's Hut" by Roger Moore = Baba Yaga as greatest witch - Iggwilv = Baba Yaga The information is extracted from Gygax's Gord novels (having not read these (yet), You really should read the stories sometime. They're worth digging up, in particular if you're running a Greyhawk campaign. Gygax's "The Revenge of Ghorkai" (Mongoose) mentions a demigoddess called "The Mother of Witches", that many suspect is a reference to Iggwilv (the adventure location strongly resembles the Yatils, apparently). Was this ever confirmed? Hmmm. I don't recall if Gary confirmed it personally and specifically, but if you search his Q&A threads on ENWorld and Dragonsfoot, that's the most likely place such a confirmation would appear. Allan. |
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Post by foxroe on Feb 16, 2017 18:58:38 GMT -6
Thanks Allan!
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Post by foxroe on Feb 16, 2017 20:26:53 GMT -6
OK, so, reviewing my notes, here is my unofficial version of Iggwilv, as I believe originally intentioned, based solely on official sources (S4, WG6, EGG):
That's it! No sordid affairs with demons and Archmages. No clones or fiendish familiars. No emo goth-wannabe witch-princesses. I like it.
I'll come back and edit this as I learn more. Suggestions?
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Post by stormberg on Feb 18, 2017 13:05:50 GMT -6
Howdy, She is known to have domiciled deep within the Yatil range, in a mountain fortress known as Iggwilv's Horn... Iggwilv's Horn is just a mountain and no more than a landmark. The Lost Caverns lie to the south of that landmark. S4 indicates the Lost Caverns as her lair. Futures Bright, Paul |
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Post by foxroe on Feb 18, 2017 23:38:29 GMT -6
Howdy, She is known to have domiciled deep within the Yatil range, in a mountain fortress known as Iggwilv's Horn... Iggwilv's Horn is just a mountain and no more than a landmark. The Lost Caverns lie to the south of that landmark. S4 indicates the Lost Caverns as her lair. Futures Bright, Paul Yes, a bit of interpretation on my part I suppose. While S4 does specifically say that it was "certain that Iggwilv ruled her domain from these caverns," it doesn't state that the Horn is merely a landmark to my knowledge. My impression was that the Caverns were located at the Horn. There is also the hook presented in area #6. There are several Pech digging "upwards into the mountain" to a larger sealed cavern. I always felt that this was referring to other "Lost Caverns" within Iggwilv's Horn. I'll admit I'm making a gross assumption that her dwelling was a "fortress." She would have needed something more substantial than a few cavern levels in which to house her conquering armies. ... plus it all fits into my concept of Iggwilv's Horn being a massive Gygaxian megadungeon complex.  |
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Post by scottyg on Feb 19, 2017 10:09:12 GMT -6
I worked on the Revenge of Ghorkai with EGG. The Mother of Witches is an IP friendly sub for Iggwilv. There was additional Revenge of Ghorkai material released as a web enhancement, but I don't think there was any additional Iggwilv material.
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Post by foxroe on Feb 19, 2017 11:05:26 GMT -6
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Post by foxroe on Feb 20, 2017 5:38:08 GMT -6
OK, now the overboard stuff... what can we infer about Iggwilv's doings, abilities, and character? She was an archmage, which makes her at least 18th level (by AD&D standards), and must have had at least 18 Intelligence to be able to cast 9th level spells. But a curious thing is that her self-penned Demonomicon contains Clerical spells... and 7th level ones to boot! This means (I believe) that she was also a Cleric of at least 16th level and she would have needed an 18 Wisdom to be able to dabble with 7th level spells. This also begs the question, who does the Mother of Witches and Binder of Demon Princes "worship"? My theory: Iuz. Only the very flesh and blood of the megalomaniacal Iggwilv would be worthy of her devotion. I could see her warped sense of maternity developing into fanatical worship and hundreds of sacrifices to her son on altars dark with blood. Perhaps she founded the "Church of Iuz". It would certainly help explain Iuz's rapid rise to power in the central Flanaess over the last century. Iggwilv is also known as Louhi on other worlds. Louhi is the witch Queen of Pohjola in the Finnish mythos. This means that travel between known planes of existence is a simple matter for Iggwilv, and her influence stretches far beyond the time-misted veils of Oerth. Scary. She is also at least 100 years old, and certainly older. Assuming she is human (a safe assumption considering the cambion nature of her son Iuz), she would need to have access to longevity magics, or perhaps she has discovered the secret of immortality. Or maybe she is... undead. Speaking of which... Iggwilv's daughter Drelnza is a vampire and a high level warrior to boot. Correct me if I'm wrong, but ecologically speaking (within the Greyhawk-verse), vampires do not sire children. Vampires are created. Which means Drelnza was given the "gift" at some point prior to her "long watch" over Iggwilv's treasures and her father was likely human as well. Did Drelnza turn willingly? Why did her mother allow it - did she have something to do with it? Did Drelnza's unnamed father have something to do with it? Many possibilities here. Any other thoughts/ideas/guesses/esoteric wisdom? |
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Post by scottyg on Feb 20, 2017 8:51:52 GMT -6
According to Gary she is a Demi-god, but her spell casting ability is around 28th level, which is closer to lesser deity.
Iuz is "the Old" and he's been around as long as anybody can remember. Which means his mother has to be older. And her description makes her seem ancient. I'd say at least 1,000 years old.
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randyb
Level 3 Conjurer
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Post by randyb on Feb 20, 2017 16:52:25 GMT -6
According to Gary she is a Demi-god, but her spell casting ability is around 28th level, which is closer to lesser deity. Iuz is "the Old" and he's been around as long as anybody can remember. Which means his mother has to be older. And her description makes her seem ancient. I'd say at least 1,000 years old. Unless one of the principals is a time traveller, voluntary or involuntary. I could see Iuz being cast back in time as an infant... |
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Post by foxroe on Feb 20, 2017 17:00:15 GMT -6
According to Gary she is a Demi-god, but her spell casting ability is around 28th level, which is closer to lesser deity. Iuz is "the Old" and he's been around as long as anybody can remember. Which means his mother has to be older. And her description makes her seem ancient. I'd say at least 1,000 years old. Which would mean Graz'zt/Iggwilv/Iuz were a "family" long before the conquering of Perrenland, and perhaps before Iggwilv discovered the Lost Caverns, but I'm just speculating. |
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Post by scottyg on Feb 20, 2017 18:58:03 GMT -6
According to Gary she is a Demi-god, but her spell casting ability is around 28th level, which is closer to lesser deity. Iuz is "the Old" and he's been around as long as anybody can remember. Which means his mother has to be older. And her description makes her seem ancient. I'd say at least 1,000 years old. Which would mean Graz'zt/Iggwilv/Iuz were a "family" long before the conquering of Perrenland, and perhaps before Iggwilv discovered the Lost Caverns, u but I'm just speculating. Correct. I guess Iggwilv had business more than once with Gra'zt. The later being the more well known. She could have been off exploring the multiverse in between. |
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Post by foxroe on Mar 7, 2017 0:02:37 GMT -6
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2017 12:07:40 GMT -6
You should also consider original descriptions of Iuz, from TOEE and Dragon Magazine in which his parents aren't named, and there is a hint that Iuz's father could be Orcus and with his two forms - that of obese demon and another of withered old man that can age people by spitting on them, he more resembles Prince of Undeath than handsome, dark skinned Graz'zt. |
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Post by foxroe on Apr 26, 2017 18:24:35 GMT -6
Thanks, @myrkull . That would be a potentially interesting consideration for exploring the "real Iuz". However, in this creative exercise, I was referencing strictly Gygax's writings. ToEE was co-written by Mentzer, so I would not consider it an "original" source.
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Post by Starbeard on Apr 27, 2017 6:01:34 GMT -6
Thanks for doing this digging foxroe. After reading through this thread and what Rob Kuntz has written recently about Robilar, I'm wishing that there was a definitive repository of Greyhawk PC and NPC biographies, pulled together from interviews/anecdotes and articles.
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Post by grodog on Apr 27, 2017 14:51:17 GMT -6
Thanks, @myrkull . That would be a potentially interesting consideration for exploring the "real Iuz". However, in this creative exercise, I was referencing strictly Gygax's writings. ToEE was co-written by Mentzer, so I would not consider it an "original" source. FYI, foxroe, the original publication of Iuz in Dragon #67 is what @myrkull is referring to: ToEE simply repeats this original info on page 121. Allan. |
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Post by grodog on Apr 27, 2017 14:52:36 GMT -6
Thanks for doing this digging foxroe. After reading through this thread and what Rob Kuntz has written recently about Robilar, I'm wishing that there was a definitive repository of Greyhawk PC and NPC biographies, pulled together from interviews/anecdotes and articles. Short of someone writing a cultural biography of the Greyhawk campaign, your best source for that data is probably the GreyWiki at Canonfire!, but you'll need to mentally filter out post-1e sources/info: wiki.greyparticle.com/index.php/Main_PageAllan. |
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Post by foxroe on Apr 27, 2017 18:47:20 GMT -6
Thanks, @myrkull . That would be a potentially interesting consideration for exploring the "real Iuz". However, in this creative exercise, I was referencing strictly Gygax's writings. ToEE was co-written by Mentzer, so I would not consider it an "original" source. FYI, foxroe , the original publication of Iuz in Dragon #67 is what @myrkull is referring to: ToEE simply repeats this original info on page 121. Allan. Ah, I remember this article! I also see that it was written by EGG in 1982. S4 was also published in '82, and then WG6 in '85. Hmmm... when was the first mention of the link between Iuz and Iggwilv? The Gord novels? |
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Post by grodog on Apr 27, 2017 20:01:01 GMT -6
Hmmm... when was the first mention of the link between Iuz and Iggwilv? The Gord novels? An excellent opportunity for you to dig into the source material!  and =) Allan. |
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