High Level Play

[calithena]

This has always been a tough thing in OD&D and AD&D IMO.

One of a couple things usually seems to happen:

- the PCs get obscenely powerful, and then it gets to be this one-upmanship sort of contest. I have run games for characters where I just started blowing up supernovas and stuff to see what bullshirt immunities and regeneration abilities they cite to get out of it. There are some 'power DMs' who actually used to make this kind of thing sort of work, but I've never been much for this kind of play.

- the PCs get really powerful but stay within the scope of ordinary play, in which case challenging them gets increasingly hard: counters tend to be cakewalks or TPKs with little space in between for the sweet spot of 'fun fights' that's pretty easy to hit in the teens.

What have you done to make very high level OD&D functional? In the high teens, twenties, thirties, and beyond?

[doc]

It really becomes a problem when one or more people in the campaign decide they don't like the current style of play. If it is a tweaked-to-the-gills munchkin campaign and the DM and all the players want that sort of game, then there is no problem. I still recall when I was 12 years old and my fighter character was good friends with Elric of Melnibone to such an extent that the albino would let him borrow Stormbringer all the time.

You don't need high level monsters to deal with high level characters. Remember, a big part of adventuring should be problem solving and social interactions; two things that level, spell lists, and magical items shouldn't really influence. Instead of having the high level characters go up against a hill giant army, have them act as agents of peace sent by the king to form a treaty with the invading giants instead.

DM Rule #34: Not every encounter can be solved through a fight.

Doc

[Deleted]

To be honest, I haven't. I've never been involved with a campaign (either playing or running) where a character made it past the 12 to 14 mark. After the party starts to hold their own against pretty much any combination of creatures or nefarious plots I can throw at them (commanding armies & navies, dragon attacks, the destruction of an evil god's avatar, alien invasions [yep ;D], etc.), they get pretty tired of it, & simply wan't to start fresh. I have, however, run what I call the "sequel", where the PC's (now archwizards, high priests, guildmasters & rulers rich in both land & title) will unite once again against a powewrful nemesis threatening the world (i.e., the inadvertant awakening of an ancient lost god or goddess, or something along those lines). For me personally, the sweet spot of character play is between the 5th to 10th level (when your character is starting to become pretty tough, but encounters are still challenging & fun). I always leave it up to my players: Once they hit 12th level (if they do), I'll ask if they wan't to continue play, or start with a new batch of PC's. I value my players' input, & have crafted a great many unique campaigns that way. If everyone involved was willing to continue, I'd be game for it (maybe they could fight for their place in the pantheon of gods, travel to bizarre dimensions, a crossover game (like my Dragonlance/Star Wars experiment), travel to OUR world [Earth, 2007], etc.); there is always plenty to try, but if the PC's become gods, I just see a tabletop version of "Populous" evolving. Don't get me worng, it would be fun, but I also think it would get old for the group at large pretty quick. Anyway, just my op.

[coffee]

I haven't run any high level games, so I can't comment on that.

But I would like to agree with oltekos that the sweet spot does seem to be between 5th and 10th level.

[crimhthanthegreat]

The highest that any of my players has gotten before retiring a character is 15th level and usually we retire them somewhere between 10th level and 12th or 13th level. In 36+ years we have just chosen to not play any higher than that. However, this current adventure that we have started (see the around the campfire board) where they have decided to try to circumnavigate the world is going to take 10-15 years or more of game time if they survive to complete it. I have not yet posted all of their info, but they are a party of 12 that range from 8th level to 10th level for the humans and there are two dwarven fighters that have already maxed out their level at 7th level (house rule max level) and there are two elven magic users that have maxed out their level at 8th level. My players are fine in starting a major adventure with characters that have already maxed out their levels. On the other hand if they survive the human characters are likely to reach levels that we have never played to IMC in all these years. I have so far been slow to post much with all that is currently going on, but I will try to get more details posted over the next few weeks before Christmas.

I am looking forward to the challenge. ;D

[Finarvyn]

The only time I run really high level games is when I'm DM-ing for a solo player. At that point I try to ask W.W.C.D. ("What Would Conan Do?") to generate ideas for a game. Conan would go toe-to-toe with nasty monsters, even if he had little armor and no magical items. Conan would go up against evil sorcerers, even without the ability to cast spells of his own. In these types of cases, Conan needs to be high level in order to stay alive; he needs those piles of hit points in order to make it through the adventure.

On the other hand, if I'm dealing with a party of characters they don't need high levels. As others have stated, I tend to top out my players in the 8th-12th level range before they retire. I have always played with the notion that those uber-high levels mentioned in Men & Magic were supposed to be for the nasty baddies the party is going up against, not really supposed to be PC's at all.

However, if you really want to run a high level game (say, above 12th or so) I might suggest that you might track down a copy of the 2E book called (I think) DM Option: High Level Campaigns. It has some superpowery stuff like spells above 9th level, but more importantly it talks about how to handle high-level characters and types of obsticles to toss at them instead of just more hit points. (If there's interest, I can find my copy and post more on this.)

[crimhthanthegreat]

I would be interested in more info, these guys may get up quite a few levels before we are done and go to where we normally just never go. I asked the guys with the elves and dwarven characters if they really wanted to take those characters on this trip since they were already maxed out on levels, and they assured me that they did not see it as an issue at all, so I am thinking of what I can do since additional levels for those four characters are not in the mix, but the rest of the group are likely to go up quite a few levels, assuming of course that they survive.

[Finarvyn]

Okay. I'll have to hunt down the book; I think I know which box it's packed away inside (since I don't really play 2E anymore). I'll get back to you on this ASAP.

[dwayanu]

First, I suggest setting some absolute limits so that increases in power are not open-ended. That was done in AD&D by going strictly by the book: spell memorization for MUs and clerics maxes out at 29th level; MUs' and thieves' to-hit and save chances peak at 21st level (19th for clerics, 17th for fighters); thief abilities don't improve past 17th; and so on.

Set such firm limits in D&D. Also use something like the Supplement I / AD&D system in which characters get only added pips (not hit dice or Constitution bonuses) past "name" level. Then, the inherent difference between level 30 and level 130 is only so many hit points.

In AD&D, high-level characters often have ability scores elevated past 18 via wishes and other means. There are rules for scores up to 25 in Monster Manual 2 and Deities & Demigods / Legends & Lore, and that would be the cap.

The D&D books don't have those special rules (e.g., Intelligence granting immunity to illusions, Wisdom to charms, Charisma granting the power of awe, and Constitution giving regeneration). You could cap scores at 18, or add some rules.

If (for whatever reason) characters can easily see through magical illusions, then don't rely on them but instead employ non-magical trickery. Similar advice would apply to charms. Even without regeneration, the party may have tons of magical healing -- so don't let up the pressure!

Encumbrance alone is a start to limiting how many magic items a character can employ. AD&D has additional limits such as no more than two magic rings at a time*. It's up to you, of course, what items are available in the campaign (one hopes not +10 dancing vorpal blades or the like).

With saving throw chances so high, some penalties are in order now and then (e.g., especially potent poison).

Apply all the rules strictly; don't give high-level characters a break. Again, AD&D has more rules to limit high-level characters, and you may want to crib some; spell memorization time comes to mind.

Play opponents skillfully. Having a co-DM or "monster player" -- or a couple -- can be a big help.

Some DMs rely a lot on environments (such as other planes) that limit characters' abilities. Too much of that, and one might wonder why the characters were given such power in the first place.

At high levels, one can pretty much count on players finding their way through or around darned near any obstacle. That assumes they're cunning enough. Testing the players rather than their characters' game stats is at least as important at high levels as at low.

*[edit:] ditto BTB D&D

[calithena]

Dwayanu - that's a good approach, and basically just sets a 'power cap'.

The other approach I've seen is just for the DM to constantly out-gonzo people. This is hard to work, but it can be done - look at Ethan Karp's thread about Hargrave's game in Pierce's "recollections of original gamers" thread for an example.

[dwayanu]

I've gone the "gonzo" route, and it wasn't really hard work; it was typical of my off-the-cuff sessions. I don't think anyone went past 13th level in regular play (which nowadays I take as normative for my game). On occasion, we'd whip up some super-dudes for a weird and wacky tear across the multiverse.

I went through a period of using Hargrave's Arduin rules (the original trilogy). There are subtleties to them.

First of all, the experience scheme tends toward slow to moderate advancement. From 4th (sometimes 5th?) level on, the mostly linear progression means that you need fewer XP than in D&D. On the other hand, XP are harder to come by -- none for gold, frex.

The to-hit matrix maxes out at 31+ with lower chances than D&D's 16+ (15-16 being equivalent to 10-12 on D&D's matrix). Turning is not so simply compared (d20 rather than 2d6), and saves apparently improve without limit (a loophole I think I closed with a house rule) -- but my guess is that in context they are at least not much more extreme than taking the caps off the D&D tables would be.

I haven't worked it out concretely, but I think the magic system is less generous at very high levels than a simple continuation of the D&D spells-castable tables would be. There are many factors, mana cost and memorization time among them. Having 20th-level spells sounds like overkill -- What's so far beyond Power Word - Kill, Time Stop or Wish? -- but (IIRC) the examples in the books are really not "all that." Besides which, it takes an Intelligence score of at least 40 to cast a 20th-level spell!

The hit point system in Grimoire Vol. III is vastly "levelling" relative to that in D&D Supplement I. Consider a male human fighter with Constitution 10. In Arduin, he gets 29 hp at 1st level, +1/level for only 79 hp (2.72x) at level 51 -- versus an average of 124.5 (27.67x avg. 1st lvl.) in D&D. Plus, he's as vulnerable as ever to gruesome critical hits (the frequency of which I don't recall).

Note that in Arduin the newbie has hp on par with a monster of 6 to 7 (d8) HD.

I never played with Dave, and watched him DM only once at a con (despite having lived not too far from him for a while). My impression is that he was a very tough ref, not at all a "Monty Haul" type.

[calithena]

He was a very tough ref by all accounts, but also fair. (I had a chance to play with him once and passed on it, wish I'd taken it now...stupidity of youth.) People in NorCal used to talk about powergaming vs. monty haul and the difference was, in both you had artifacts and crazy gonzo stuff, but in powergaming the DM didn't just give it to you and you could get killed if you weren't good.

[Finarvyn]

Here's what the High Level Campaigns book has to say:

The Seven Maxims
1. Don’t Depend on the Dice

2. Intelligent Adversaries

Consider the Opponent’s Intelligence
Review the Creature’s Weaknesses
Review the Creature’s Strengths
Handling Defeat
Minimizing Personal Risks
Bad Guys Don’t Fight Fair

3. Control Magic

Use Magical Items
Magic is Tempting
Remove Unwanted Magical Items
Spell Memorization and Acquisition
Magic’s Limitations
Magic Shops

4. Be Aware of Demographics

5. Think on an Epic Scale

Heroes are not Anonymous
Heroes Deserve Heroic Tasks
Far reaching Impact

6. Plan Ahead

Create Villains Who Learn
Consequences
Fame and Infamy
Balancing Act

7. Share Responsibility

Garner Interest
Goals
Allies and Enemies
Personality

[Finarvyn]

Also, you might look here

[dwayanu]

To me, it seems that without some limits the game (paradoxically, perhaps) tends to become "more of the same." By way of analogy, one might think of the arms race between offense and defense in modern armored warfare. A King Tiger is probably pretty wimpy next to one of today's top main battle tanks. I see a profound muting of contrast in "3e," and prefer an approach that more sharply distinguishes high-level play.

The distinction I have in mind is a high-level "plateau" in the power curve.

Nostalgia: I picked up my first set of Arduin books when I insisted that Dad pull over as we passed a hobby shop in San Francisco. I was in and out in a hurry. Back in the car, I opened the books to find the inscriptions Good Luck from Dave Hargrave and Surprise best wishes from Dave Hargrave in II and III.

[badger2305]

Dave Arneson told me more than once that when a character got to 20th level in Blackmoor, three things would happen:

• The player received a certification of survival signed by Dave
  
• Dave would take the player out to dinner, and
  
• The player now had a retired character ;D
  

Sounded about right to me.

[dwayanu]

I saw somewhere a player's recollection that he so dreaded a character's "retirement" by Arneson that he started avoiding the acquisition of XP!

[crimhthanthegreat]

admin said:

Here's what the High Level Campaigns book has to say:

The Seven Maxims
1. Don’t Depend on the Dice

2. Intelligent Adversaries

Consider the Opponent’s Intelligence
Review the Creature’s Weaknesses
Review the Creature’s Strengths
Handling Defeat
Minimizing Personal Risks
Bad Guys Don’t Fight Fair

3. Control Magic

Use Magical Items
Magic is Tempting
Remove Unwanted Magical Items
Spell Memorization and Acquisition
Magic’s Limitations
Magic Shops

4. Be Aware of Demographics

5. Think on an Epic Scale

Heroes are not Anonymous
Heroes Deserve Heroic Tasks
Far reaching Impact

6. Plan Ahead

Create Villains Who Learn
Consequences
Fame and Infamy
Balancing Act

7. Share Responsibility

Garner Interest
Goals
Allies and Enemies
Personality

I hope that I already for the most part do these things, I try to run a tough deadly game from the gitgo.

[crimhthanthegreat]

admin said:

Also, you might look here

You're trying to corrupt me, right! ;D

[crimhthanthegreat]

badger2305 said:

Dave Arneson told me more than once that when a character got to 20th level in Blackmoor, three things would happen:

• The player received a certification of survival signed by Dave
  
• Dave would take the player out to dinner, and
  
• The player now had a retired character ;D
  

Sounded about right to me.

Now that is too funny!