Carcosa: OD&D vs. AD&D

[Deleted]

Greetings. I am a fan of Geoffrey McKinney's Carcosa, at least with regards to the hardcover produced by LotFP. This book, and McKinney's musings about it on the internet, helped introduce me to the world of OD&D. When I first heard about Carcosa, he was no longer selling it through his website, so I had to wait for the LotFP edition. 

Apart from the LotFP stats, the contents of the hardcover screamed OD&D to me. The genre mashups, terse Judges Guild-style hex descriptions, peculiar rules subsystems (psionics, sorcery, etc.). I have never had the courage to run it (my campaign is more folkloric and historical fantasy), but every page is an inspiration.

Imagine my surprise when I learned that the new books are formatted for AD&D! Given all the ink that was spilled in the early days of the OSR about the relative merits of OD&D and AD&D, and McKinney's reputation as a staunch advocate of the former, naturally my curiosity was piqued. Geoffrey, if you're reading, I would be curious to hear about why your group decided to switch to AD&D, and about whether you still use Carcosa sorcerers or only AD&D magic-users. For the rest of you, I'd be curious to hear which rules set you think works better for the Carcosa setting, and which you've used in your campaigns.

[geoffrey]

Aug 18, 2016 7:52:53 GMT -6 @jonmiller said:

Geoffrey, if you're reading, I would be curious to hear about why your group decided to switch to AD&D, and about whether you still use Carcosa sorcerers or only AD&D magic-users. For the rest of you, I'd be curious to hear which rules set you think works better for the Carcosa setting, and which you've used in your campaigns.

I kept re-inventing the wheel. Whether it was animals, giant animals, weapon types, etc. I kept finding it already done in AD&D.

In regards to 1970s-era AD&D, I do not think of it as fundamentally different than OD&D.

Which works better for Carcosa, OD&D or AD&D? I'd say whichever the DM would prefer. OD&D requires/allows for more re-inventing the wheel. (How many hit dice does a sabre-tooth cat have?) AD&D allows for more out-of-the-box play.

Sure, I still use the stuff from the original Carcosa book in my campaign along with all the stuff in the modules. I didn't specifically refer to it in my four AD&D Carcosa modules because I didn't want anybody to think, "What!? I have to buy a $45 book before I can use this module? Man, was I jipped!" So you certainly can use the old Carcosa book with the modules, but doing so is 100% optional.

[Deleted]

Thanks for the reply! Even when playing OD&D, the AD&D manuals work well as sourcebooks.

And OD&D does require house rules and rulings even to get going. I've house ruled it so much that practically speaking I've arrived to my own retroclone.

On the other hand, AD&D has so many quirks that I probably wouldn't use those rules as written as either.

I look forward to reading your new modules. I just made a bunch of other gaming purchases, and so can't buy them right now, but they're next on the list. I will be curious to see if you have made changes to the format and content of your books since writing the Carcosa hardback for LotFP.

[tkdco2]

Did you translate the Carcosa sorcerer to AD&D?

[Malcadon]

Aug 18, 2016 7:52:53 GMT -6 @jonmiller said:

Imagine my surprise when I learned that the new books are formatted for AD&D!

From what I remember, the game originated form games of AD&D and Gamma World — a great combination into itself.

The real beauty of Carcosa is how truly nebulous the game is. The setting itself makes use of established genres — cosmic horror, swords & sorcery, dark fantasy and swords & planets — but the world and its people are vague enough to allow for a wide range of interpretation by Refs, to were it can be a highly personalized open-sandbox game, and if there are things a Ref does not like, they can be free dropped or altered. For example, my Carcosa is more-or-less modeled on the esthetics of the 1973 french film La Planète Sauvage (Fantastic Planet in the US), where the people look like weirdly dressed tribal nudists, and the native life is bizarre beyond description. Whatever you make of it, is entirely up to you.

And more so with the core game mechanics: The system used is entirely unimportant to the game as published, but has enough D&D-ish game elements in so it can be used with whatever system a Ref prefers. I'm not a fan of the OD&D and AD&D rules, so I opted to use my own rules: A piecemeal Flesh Golem of a system built form various rulebooks, rule-supplements and houserules, from games like Barbarians of Lemuria, Mutant Future, Crimson Blades and others. But hay, that...



...is how I roll!

Use whatever system is comfortable with you and your gaming pals.

[geoffrey]

Aug 18, 2016 17:03:24 GMT -6 tkdco2 said:

Did you translate the Carcosa sorcerer to AD&D?

No, but I think it could be used pretty much as-is with AD&D. Perhaps have them roll 10-sided dice for hit points.

[tkdco2]

I'd probably go with 8-siders instead. That way there are still some perks for fighters.

I also thought of using the cleric attack tables for sorcerers. Either that, or disallow percentile strength, fighter CON bonuses, and multiple attacks for them.

[otiv]

I'm using LotFP for it, using MU stats for Sorcerers, and Specialist skills available to both Fighters and Sorcerers.
It's real early in the campaign, but seems to be working just fine.

[ritt]

I really dig Geoffrey's edition-agnostic attitude. It's all just D&D (Yes, even Pathfinder), and a seasoned DM should have no problem converting from edition to edition in his head.

[tkdco2]

It has been suggested before: Let any class learn rituals. But that choice should be made by the player when his character is still level 1 The price would be needing more XP to level up. I recommend an extra 1,000 XP to get to level 2, then calculate subsequent XP needed from there.

Another question for geoffrey: Do you allow subclasses in your Carcosa game?

[geoffrey]

Aug 23, 2016 2:44:22 GMT -6 tkdco2 said:

Another question for geoffrey: Do you allow subclasses in your Carcosa game?

None have come up in play thus far.

I would certainly allow the following sub-classes:
illusionists
assassins

I would have to think about allowing the following sub-classes:
druids
paladins
rangers

[otiv]

Aug 23, 2016 7:25:05 GMT -6 geoffrey said:

Aug 23, 2016 2:44:22 GMT -6 tkdco2 said:

Another question for geoffrey: Do you allow subclasses in your Carcosa game?

None have come up in play thus far.

I would certainly allow the following sub-classes:
illusionists
assassins

I would have to think about allowing the following sub-classes:
druids
paladins
rangers

How about monks?
(Had a monk in a Carcosa one-shot I ran one time. That was fun.)

[geoffrey]

I'd be OK with monks.

[tkdco2]

How about bards? Seems like historians and loremasters may be important in Carcosa societies.

[tkdco2]

I have been toying with the idea of converting Carcosa to the HERO system.

[otiv]

What about BRP Carcosa?

You could easily just hack Call of Cthulhu + Stormbringer/Elric! into a suitable system for Carcosa.
I would greatly truncate the skill list for quicker character creation, scale everything into increments of 5% so you can just use a d20 for everything (I never saw much point in the percentile rolls since that extra digit doesn't seem to do much without funky dice tricks.)

[tkdco2]

I thought of using Stormbringer as well. Considering that summonings were the only magic in the older editions, they fit right in. We just need to expand it to banishings and the other types.

[otiv]

I'm more familiar with Elric! than Stormbringer, but even that would fit perfectly. Elric! even has rules for human sacrifices (as an alternate way of paying off magic point costs.)
I have a bunch of projects I'm already working on, but I'll try to find time to homebrew something...
Carcosa BRP could be a really fun expansion for Call of Cthulhu and Rune Quest.

[Malcadon]

Sept 5, 2016 20:39:23 GMT -6 @sirravd said:

The original Carcosa was AD&D + GW; it would be interesting to try to adapt it to Mutant Future or MCC.

Well, I'm trying to do that with one of the rulesets.

The link is from a Wiki for house-rules & inspirational materials for the Mutant Future game. So far, the Carcosa page is still a work-in-progress. With the general review out of the way, I can focus more on the house rules and conversion content. Folks are more than welcome to contribute.

[tkdco2]

Good idea, Malcadon!

[tkdco2]

If sorcerers are removed, and any class can perform rituals, here's how I'd do it. I'm going to assume only the 4 basic classes will exist.

The player will decide if his character has the ability to perform rituals. The decision must be made when the character is rolled up, ideally at level 1. The character doesn't start with any rituals; he has to learn them during play.

If the character can't perform rituals, no changes are necessary. If the character can perform rituals, change the xp tables for level advancement.

Clerics who can perform rituals: use the druid xp table.
Fighters who can perform rituals: use the ranger xp table.
Magic-users who can perform rituals: use the sorcerer xp table, as per the Carcosa book. Don't forget to add the extra 1 xp to get to the next level.
Thieves who can perform rituals: use the assassin xp table.

[otiv]

You might also consider using the 'level adjustment' mechanic where you simply count the character as being one level higher for purposes of determining how much XP is required to attain the next level.

So, assuming the use of AD&D experience tables
A level 1 non-sorcerer Fighter would require 2,000 XP to attain level 2
A level 2 Sorcerer/Fighter would require 4,000 XP to attain level 2

It's a much steeper cost, but it requires less mental shorthand.

[tkdco2]

I decided to keep the classes limited to the sorcerer and the fighter, whether I use OD&D or AD&D. The reason I was drawn to Carcosa was that it wasn't standard D&D. Having regular clerics and magic-users casting spells from the PHB brings it a lot closer to the regular D&D campaign. Ditto the monetary system. I had devised my own coinage, but the villages don't seem to trade much among one another, and barter would probably be the norm within a village. I imagine the villages to be quite poor by our standards. So the thief class would be dropped in my game as well, since there's not a lot of stuff to steal.

[Malcadon]

Nov 2, 2016 1:56:09 GMT -6 tkdco2 said:

I decided to keep the classes limited to the sorcerer and the fighter, whether I use OD&D or AD&D. The reason I was drawn to Carcosa was that it wasn't standard D&D. Having regular clerics and magic-users casting spells from the PHB brings it a lot closer to the regular D&D campaign. Ditto the monetary system. I had devised my own coinage, but the villages don't seem to trade much among one another, and barter would probably be the norm within a village. I imagine the villages to be quite poor by our standards. So the thief class would be dropped in my game as well, since there's not a lot of stuff to steal.

If you are going to use AD&D for Carcosa without the "Tolkienesque" and "Vancian" bits in play, you can pull off those bits that were tacked on to this bad-boy for something a little more Carcosian.

[tkdco2]

I may just go with B/X instead. That's what I've mostly been doing anyway.

[Lorgalis]

Folks it's a fantasy game and it is Carcosa which means it can be anything from spot on by GMcK Fiat or using any rules, setting material you like. Cyborg surf Stalinists listening to GBH on Nano sharks using Thaumaturgic magic from the WoD book - works as does the AD&D Jester from Dragon mag or Nestor from Battle of the Planets to Rolemaster crit inclusion to stress rules from Abandon all hope. Everything is good, it all works.

[tkdco2]

Here are a couple of other systems you can use for Carcosa:

d6 Fantasy by West End Games, mechanics are based on the Star Wars rpg

Broadsword Adventures by Rattrap Productions, with Carcosa as a setting for a skirmish game

[tkdco2]

Sept 5, 2016 2:11:22 GMT -6 @sirravd said:

What about "GURPS: Carcosa"?

I thought about it briefly, but my experience with GURPS is very limited. That's why I considered using the HERO system instead.

Either way, I wouldn't be using the latest editions, as I never bought them. I would use 5th Edition for HERO and 3rd Edition for GURPS.

[burningtorso]

Cthulhupunk 3rd edition would be the starting place for GURPS.