Do the rules actually say that HD are 6-sided?

[geoffrey]

Whether for player characters or for monsters, do the three little 1974 rulebooks ever explicitly say that HD are 6-sided? I'm sure that 6-siders were in Gary's mind when he wrote the rules, but I'm wondering if that is explicit in the rules.

I've been using the method of rolling hp at the beginning of each and every combat. To further loosen things up, I was thinking it might be interesting to (in addition to rolling hp at each combat) randomly determining which dice to roll:

Player: "OK, I have 5 HD. The orcs have attacked. Let's see what I roll for my HD this time: All right! I get to use 10-siders this time!"

DM: "Now let me randomly determine what the orcs are using for HD. Ha! 12-siders."

Player: "Guys, let's get out of here..."

[coffee]

The example on page 18 of Men & Magic strongly implies that the dice are six-sided, but it isn't stated as such.

However, in Greyhawk on page 10, when presenting the alternate hit die scheme, it says that:

Use of this system is highly recommended, but if it is used all monsters should be
based on the 8-sided die system. (Dragons to get the additional 2 points at the two oldest
ages.) Thus, a Kobold would get 1 -4 points.

This very strongly implies that the dice used prior to this system were six-sided.


Now, that's just what the rules say. You go ahead and try it your way, and then report back to the rest of us. I for one would really like to know how that goes!

GM: "Okay, party, roll your hit points."

Party: "Sweet! We get d10's this time!"

GM: "And the dragons get ... nuts, d4's!"

And thus was another legend born, of the 3rd level party that wiped out four dragons...

[kesher]

You know, a lot of interesting stuff gets done around here with HP. Whoever would've thought they could be so versatile?

Geoffrey, I think the idea of rolling HP at the beginning of every fight is excellent; it really emphasizes the "luck/fortune" aspect that Gygax expanded on in the DMG. So, if someone got wounded in a previous combat, and hasn't had a chance to heal, what happens? Do you just subtract the wounds from the new amount? And what if the reroll then effectively kills them?

And I'll second coffee--let us know how it goes if you use the randomly determined randomizers!

[Zulgyan]

I just roll on the spot for creatures. PCs have the normal fixed value.

[geoffrey]

Jul 9, 2008 15:41:32 GMT -6 kesher said:

So, if someone got wounded in a previous combat, and hasn't had a chance to heal, what happens? Do you just subtract the wounds from the new amount? And what if the reroll then effectively kills them?

Suppose a PC has 9 HD. In his first combat, he rolls as follows:

6
6
5
4
4
3
3
1
1

He does NOT total these dice. Instead, he leaves the dice laying on the table as rolled.

When the PC gets wounded, the DM takes dice away, starting with the dice showing the highest numbers. For example, suppose the PC above gets hit for 8 points of damage. The DM would literally take-away one of the dice showing a 6, and he would take the other die showing a 6 and turn it so it was showing a 4. Thus, the PC's hit dice now show:

4
5
4
4
3
3
1
1

Futher suppose that the PC takes no more damage during that combat. After it's over, he notes on his character card that he is down to 8 HD.

Assuming no healing takes place, at the beginning of the next combat he gets to roll only 8 (not 9) HD.

In other words, hp are mostly ignored, except in the course of a given combat. All the emphasis is on HD.

[geoffrey]

I'm thinking that when combat begins, each PC individually and each monster group could roll either a 10-sider or an old-fashioned 20-sider (numbered 0-9 twice) and consult the following table to see what they use for HD during that combat:

1-2: 4-siders
3-4: 6-siders
5-6: 8-siders
7-8: 10-siders
9-0: 12-siders

My old-school 20-siders are numbered 0-9 twice, so I'll not consider them for HD of 1-20 points each.

The above table would result, in PCs and monsters having (averaged over time) 4.5 hp per die on average, rather than 3.5 hp her die. That's the same that they have under the Greyhawk rules of 4.5 hp per die on average.

[Zulgyan]

Cure light wounds could "restore" lost dice.

[geoffrey]

Jul 9, 2008 16:13:03 GMT -6 geoffrey said:

I'm thinking that when combat begins, each PC individually and each monster group could roll either a 10-sider or an old-fashioned 20-sider (numbered 0-9 twice) and consult the following table to see what they use for HD during that combat:

1-2: 4-siders
3-4: 6-siders
5-6: 8-siders
7-8: 10-siders
9-0: 12-siders

My old-school 20-siders are numbered 0-9 twice, so I'll not consider them for HD of 1-20 points each.

The above table would result, in PCs and monsters having (averaged over time) 4.5 hp per die on average, rather than 3.5 hp her die. That's the same that they have under the Greyhawk rules of 4.5 hp per die on average.

This might be fun to also do with weapon damage. Yes, any given weapon still does "1 die" of damage. But which die this combat?

[geoffrey]

Jul 9, 2008 16:31:00 GMT -6 Zulgyan said:

Cure light wounds could "restore" lost dice.

Exactly so. If a cure light wounds spell was cast during combat, the recipient would get to roll another die and add it to his hp pool laying on the table. If the spell was cast between combats, the recipient would get to add 1 HD to his character card.

[Deleted]

Since the text on page 18 talks about the plusses adding pips to the rolled dice, I don't know how it could be read as any other die being used. I've never heard of dice with "pips" except in reference to six-sided dice.

[Zulgyan]

Jul 9, 2008 20:02:39 GMT -6 geoffrey said:

Jul 9, 2008 16:31:00 GMT -6 Zulgyan said:

Cure light wounds could "restore" lost dice.

Exactly so. If a cure light wounds spell was cast during combat, the recipient would get to roll another die and add it to his hp pool laying on the table. If the spell was cast between combats, the recipient would get to add 1 HD to his character card.

There is no need to note down HD in the character card. Just keep the pile of dice together and near you. Put "dead" dice back to the bag. Take them away from the bag and back to the table when you heal.

[pjork]

Jul 9, 2008 15:41:32 GMT -6 kesher said:

So, if someone got wounded in a previous combat, and hasn't had a chance to heal, what happens?

I've been planning to try a variation on this in which the characters roll their hit dice at the beginning of each combat, all of them, every time. If you survive a fight, you're ready with your full number of hit dice to roll again for the next fight. I'd like to eliminate the focus on healing spells and potions. Undead life energy drain would work into this system too: any hit dice lost to life energy draining undead are gone and not restored naturally after the fight. Drained life energy can only be restored by magical healing, which will be scarce.

[Zulgyan]

i can also imagine lots of variables, like "sacrificing" you own dice for something like "extra effort" and deal your opponent an additional dice of damage.

[dwayanu]

Is it just an error in the example that the character takes only 8 points of damage yet loses 10 pips, or does it signify something?

It is clearly important to take pips always from the highest die. Otherwise, the number of dice lost could arbitrarily be greater.

How do you deal with pip adds? Add them to the lowest die? Add another die? I'm inclined to the latter myself, keeping it the last die lost.

I'm more inclined to stick with a simple record of points, but this approach is interesting to consider.

[blackbarn]

Jul 9, 2008 21:15:27 GMT -6 @pjork said:

Jul 9, 2008 15:41:32 GMT -6 kesher said:

So, if someone got wounded in a previous combat, and hasn't had a chance to heal, what happens?

I've been planning to try a variation on this in which the characters roll their hit dice at the beginning of each combat, all of them, every time. If you survive a fight, you're ready with your full number of hit dice to roll again for the next fight. I'd like to eliminate the focus on healing spells and potions. Undead life energy drain would work into this system too: any hit dice lost to life energy draining undead are gone and not restored naturally after the fight. Drained life energy can only be restored by magical healing, which will be scarce.

That's the concept I was starting to formulate in my head while reading geoffrey's idea, but you spelled it out. I quite like it, and may give it a go!

[geoffrey]

Jul 9, 2008 22:59:30 GMT -6 dwayanu said:

Is it just an error in the example that the character takes only 8 points of damage yet loses 10 pips, or does it signify something?

It is clearly important to take pips always from the highest die. Otherwise, the number of dice lost could arbitrarily be greater.

How do you deal with pip adds? Add them to the lowest die? Add another die? I'm inclined to the latter myself, keeping it the last die lost.

I'm more inclined to stick with a simple record of points, but this approach is interesting to consider.

1. How embarrassing! I flunked 2nd-grade math! It was indeed a math error. It's fixed now.

2. You are absolutely right to take-away from the highest dice first.

3. Pip adds are the responsibility of the player to remind me of. If his character loses all his HD, the PC is DEAD unless the player reminds me of his pip adds. Pip adds are the very last hp to be lost.

4. I like this overall method of dealing with HD and hp (Thanks, Zulgyan and calithena!). I have recently acquired 500 old-school dice. This method lets us add a sort of "toy" quality to the game: all those pretty, geometric dice all over...

[geoffrey]

Jul 9, 2008 20:58:41 GMT -6 Zulgyan said:

There is no need to note down HD in the character card. Just keep the pile of dice together and near you. Put "dead" dice back to the bag. Take them away from the bag and back to the table when you heal.

Even better. Suggestion adopted!

[dwayanu]

Thanks for the clarifications!

How do you handle Cure Wounds spells and natural healing? Offhand, it seems to me that it would be felicitous to rewrite all such rules in terms of whole dice. Maybe extra dice and a "drop lowest" process could figure somewhere.

If "incidental" damage (such as from traps) is common, then re-rolling hit points could be a drag and/or "wash out" the normal attritional effects. With but one die, one is ether killed by an encounter or not weakened by it at all. Of course, that may be just the effect you want.

To go in the other direction, one could borrow a practice from old cardboard-chit war games: a hit calls for loss of at least as many pips as the damage roll -- but always in whole dice! There's a somewhat similar rule in Traveller.

If going that route, I would naturally apply the rule only for combatants with more than one die. Otherwise, hit points and damage rolls become meaningless (as every hit is a kill).

(Of course, in those old games it was poor planning that left an attacker getting an "exchange" result versus a 2-point enemy with no choice but to lose 3 points himself.)

[ffilz]

One thought I had - if you take a partial die of damage, you trade that die in for a red die with the appropriate total. When re-rolling hit points, you DON'T re-roll your red die.

Making healing simply heal a set number of dice would be a good effect. If you heal a red die, you get to replace it with a regular die and re-roll, but the result can't be less than what was showing on the red die.

For adds, a simple way to handle them is to represent them with a red die. I might lump the whole con bonus into a single red die, but you might also bump each die (or with 3LBB attributes, where you only get + or - 1 for con, apply that as a die size bump). If you heal an adds die, it just resets to the original value (so perhaps make the adds die yet another color).

My gut feeling though is that this system would be complicated, and also make it somewhat harder for players to plan (since they might suddenly discover their front line fighter only has one hit point).

Frank

[Stormcrow]

At the time the rules were written, very few people were familiar with the full set of polyhedral dice. Whenever dice are mentioned without references to the number of sides, it means six-sided dice.

This is why most rules involving six-sided dice rolls don't mention the number of sides explicitly.

[geoffrey]

An additional idea:

Each time that a PC or a monster hits in combat, roll a handful of SIX dice, one of each sort. Then look at the 20-sider to determine which of the other dice that are lying there to read for your damage. Here's the chart to use if your 20-siders are numbered 0-9 twice:

1-2: read the 4-sider
3-4: read the 6-sider
5-6: read the 8-sider
7-8: read the 10-sider
9-0: read the 12-sider

Here's the chart to use if your 20-siders are numbered 1-20:

1-4: read the 4-sider
5-8: read the 6-sider
9-12: read the 8-sider
13-16: read the 10-sider
17-20: read the 12-sider

Example: Your character smashes an orc with his mace, so you roll all six types of dice in a single handful (and let's assume your 20-sider is numbered 1 to 20). You look at your 20-sider and it says "14". So you look at your 10-sider and it says "7". So you did 7 hit points of damage with that attack. The other dice are ignored.

Average damage done in this system is 4.5 hp per strike.

Don't let the chart scare you off. After a couple of sessions you will have it internalized and you won't need to consult it any more.

And it's always more fun to roll a handful of dice than just one! ;D

[blackbarn]

Try it if you like it, but that just sounds way too complicated, and I personally prefer rolling less dice, not more.

[geoffrey]

I think it's about as complicated as the variable weapon damage in the 1975 Greyhawk supplement. In both cases you roll dice and consult a chart to determine your damage. And in both cases after a while you'll have the chart memorized, thus obviating the need for looking at the chart. And my little five-line chart is a lot easier to memorize than the dozens of different weapon damages in Greyhawk!

I plead guilty to the charge of rolling handfuls of dice rather than a single die, though. One caveat: I'm not talking about rolling one die after another after another after another. I'm talking about rolling a handful of dice all at once. What fun! ;D

[ffilz]

Something to consider about this scheme is that you are dramatically increasing the randomness of damage. What this will mean over the long haul is that players will suffer more random defeats and have less ability to plan (hmm, our 4th level party ought to be able to take on 3 kobolds, oops, they got d12s for hit points while we got d4s and they keep rolling d12 damage while we keep rolling d4 damage).

Frank

[geoffrey]

Jul 22, 2008 10:52:34 GMT -6 ffilz said:

Something to consider about this scheme is that you are dramatically increasing the randomness of damage. What this will mean over the long haul is that players will suffer more random defeats and have less ability to plan (hmm, our 4th level party ought to be able to take on 3 kobolds, oops, they got d12s for hit points while we got d4s and they keep rolling d12 damage while we keep rolling d4 damage).

Frank

Good point, Frank. I'm going to be trying this stuff in my D&D (1974 rules, no published supplements) Carcosa campaign. I suspect that, looked at in the big picture, it will all average out. But you are definitely right that it increases randomness when looked at combat by combat. This might help strengthen the game's Weird Tales/sword & sorcery/life is cheap feel. I remember one of Howard's Conan stories in which the mighty Conan gets felled with a single thrown rock. An unwounded 5th-level fighter who, at the beginning of combat, rolls an abyssmal 7 hp could go down from a thrown rock doing 1 die of damage (and rolling, say, 9 for the actual damage amount). Compare that with a 5th-level fighter who has "hit points: 20" written on his character sheet.

Another thought: This system, precisely because of the randomness, will make PCs more cautious. "They're just kobolds" won't have the same reassurance that it used to.

[blackbarn]

Jul 22, 2008 9:23:15 GMT -6 geoffrey said:

I plead guilty to the charge of rolling handfuls of dice rather than a single die, though. One caveat: I'm not talking about rolling one die after another after another after another. I'm talking about rolling a handful of dice all at once. What fun! ;D

Heh, fun to roll, but not fun to track down when they roll off the table, etc. I have certainly played games with lots of dice before, but somehow it makes D&D seem un-D&D-like in my mind. The d20 to hit roll may not be ideal, but it is fast.

[darneson]

In the original rules, no. But the example imply that they are d6. Frankly we always used 2d10 or 2d6 +6. Worked out OK. Plus if your rolls were bd you just started over.

Dave Arneson
"Dark Lord of Gaming"

[Deleted]

*bump*

It's been two years since Dave wrote his reply. I'm surprised no one responded to say - Wow! Really? His approach to hit dice for PCs was quite different from Men & Magic or Greyhawk!

[aldarron]

In the particular example he gives here, Dave was talking about rolling for the Ability Scores - hence the "if your roll were bad you just started over."

[18 Spears]

To me it didnt sound all that weird.