Chance of Trapped Treasure

[aldarron]

I haven't seen much concrete advice on this for OD&D and I think it can be a real game changer. Basically, the advice we get boils down to "some treasure may be trapped". Of course, there is some bleed over here with traps built in as part of the Tricks and traps in a dungeon, but I'd consider those traps to be unrelated to treasure.

I thought of using the trap list in M&TA as a guide - there are 16 treasure traps and on a d20 that means 4 out of 5 treasures will be trapped. Maybe that is a good chance for unguarded treasures (?), but overall it feels like way too often.

Of the earliest adventures, Tomb of Horrors isn't much help here, because everything is trapped and neither is Blackmoor dungeon, because no details of traps are given in the sparse descriptions.

Tsojconth and Temple of the Frog might be better guides. Funnily enough, they both have about 19 rooms with treasures of money and or magic.

Of the 19 or so rooms with monetary/magic treasures in Tsojconth, 1 chest is trapped (poison needle). So roughly 5%.

In Temple of the Frog, of the 19 or so rooms with monetary/magic treasures, 1 locked cabinet is trapped (trapdoor pit). So again roughly 5%. This treasure however is unguarded.

Thoughts?

Some other things to think about:

Should the frequency of trapped treasure vary by level? (probably not) Should the traps vary in severity for tougher levels? (probably so)

[Stormcrow]

The Underworld & Wilderness Adventures tells us that any treasure not guarded by a monster will be trapped, hidden, or difficult to access. When stocking dungeons randomly using the given procedure, two-thirds of rooms have no monsters, and one-sixth of those have treasure. Therefore, regarding only the presented random stocking procedure, one-ninth of the rooms in a dungeon will have trapped, hidden, or difficult-to-access treasure.

[aldarron]

Nov 29, 2015 9:36:04 GMT -6 Stormcrow said:

The Underworld & Wilderness Adventures tells us that any treasure not guarded by a monster will be trapped, hidden, or difficult to access. When stocking dungeons randomly using the given procedure, two-thirds of rooms have no monsters, and one-sixth of those have treasure. Therefore, regarding only the presented random stocking procedure, one-ninth of the rooms in a dungeon will have trapped, hidden, or difficult-to-access treasure.

Well, if (and that's a big if) we assume unguarded treasures are equally trapped, hidden, or difficult to access (or any equal combination thereof) then unguarded treasures, at least, are trapped 1/3 of the time. What do you think?

[howandwhy99]

Why use the ratio presented in OD&D for all dungeons? Couldn't there be variation of odds between dungeons? I guess the point is, what are the odds supposed to be representing here? What deeper design? How do we enable module designers to create balanced modules for OD&D, but also allow for them to so-called "break the rules" (actually design outside conventional rules, yet still balance the game).

For me, wandering monsters have to do with demographics, territory, and activity cycles. They don't "appear from nowhere". Kill off all the elephants and they are extinct. At least in that area/level. If there are few monsters altogether, then monster encounters decline in that area. If populations increase, they go up.

For questions about treasure it really matters what treasure means in your game. Answering that question can help understand why treasure is distributed (organized?) the way it is.

[Stormcrow]

The "deeper design" is to make it how you want it. There is no correct ratio. Gygax knew that and didn't try to tell you what to do.

We get plenty of advice later in the periodicals about balancing dungeons and dealing with Monty Haul dungeons. This always comes down to players getting enough challenge to keep them interested while not giving them so much that they become frustrated. There is no correct ratio here, either; everything depends on the preferences of the players and referee.

[Stormcrow]

Nov 29, 2015 11:00:25 GMT -6 aldarron said:

then unguarded treasures, at least, are trapped 1/3 of the time. What do you think?

You could say that, but the book doesn't; it leaves it up to the referee.

I recall hearing that Castle Greyhawk's first level was monster-poor but trap-heavy. If you make too many pronouncements about the "best" balance, you won't feel quite so ready to try such variations.

[Deleted]

100% of unguarded treasures in Ram's Horn Dungeon are trapped.

Unless, of course, they aren't.

And the amount of guarded treasures that are trapped is "some."

[aldarron]

Nov 29, 2015 16:20:31 GMT -6 @gronanofsimmerya said:

100% of unguarded treasures in Ram's Horn Dungeon are trapped.

Unless, of course, they aren't.

And the amount of guarded treasures that are trapped is "some."

Thanks Mike, that's just the sort of thing I was hoping to hear.

[Deleted]

Sometimes I trap an unguarded treasure, sometimes I trap a lightly guarded one, and sometimes one that's heavily guarded gets an absolute mother****er of a trap just to keep the players alert.

[aldarron]

Nov 29, 2015 11:03:48 GMT -6 howandwhy99 said:

Why use the ratio presented in OD&D for all dungeons? Couldn't there be variation of odds between dungeons? I guess the point is, what are the odds supposed to be representing here? What deeper design? .....

Honestly I think this is a really crucial question to how we as referees craft our games. Let me answer it this way. Aside from it's perceived lethality, what stands out about Tomb of Horrors? I think everyone recognizes that a big part of Tomb of Horrors distinctiveness is the prevalence of tricks and traps of all sorts. Now that "distinctiveness" is only true if there is a norm against which Tomb of Horrors is being compared. If all your dungeons are traps and tricks, then Tomb of Horrors is merely par for the course. In other words, there is a "typical" design expectation lying behind the ruleset from which Tomb of Horrors diverges in interesting and significant ways.

I'm interested in knowing what those typical expectations are, not so I can slavishly follow them in all adventures, but rather to emulate as desired and then diverge from when I want to achieve some particular effect - such, as a level heavy on traps, as Stormcrow mentioned.

Of course I can create my own ideas of the "typical" chances a given treasure is trapped, or how often a room should be inhabited or any of that kind of stuff, but to me, it makes more sense to listen what the old masters did, the people who designed and played the game from the start for three reasons: first because it is sure to not conflict with any rule and campaign development issues, second because it makes most adventures and characters readily portable into any similarly managed campaign and vice versa, and third because it gives me something to work against (break the rules as you say), when I want some unusual or unexpected twist. I also just think it's a lot of fun.

[oldkat]

I've never had the pleasure of experiencing the thrill of exploring an actual OD&D Dungeon; that is, one created during those times. Perhaps Mike or others from that era can comment on the absence of thieves during that period, and how Dungeon Designers accounted for the characters' (lack of?) skills in confronting these challenges.

[Stormcrow]

Nov 30, 2015 13:39:54 GMT -6 oldkat said:

how Dungeon Designers accounted for the characters' (lack of?) skills in confronting these challenges.

There are no rules for how to accomplish most things in D&D, because it was envisioned as a game where the referee simply decides whether the character succeeds at what the player wants him to do. In common cases where the referee wouldn't know, like how likely it is the character can damage an opponent during a fight or how likely it is that a character can resist a magic spell thrown at him, tables are given. Otherwise, everything is a decision by the referee, based on his understanding of the situation.

This includes getting past traps. You don't just say, "I look for traps"; you say what you're doing to find a trap. "I poke the floor with a pole"; "I put on my gauntlets before turning the key"; "I crawl along the floor under the level of that dark hole, looking for tripwires and loose stones."

Not much lockpicking happens; if you come to a locked door you can't break down you need to find a key or cast a spell to open it. Maybe you could hire a locksmith or a thief and bring him into the dungeon with you to open the lock; good luck with that. Maybe your character has 18 dexterity and when you try to pick it yourself the referee says you succeed. If you really want to get past that door, go look for a way. THAT'S the challenge.