Pro Rating Treasure

[aldarron]

In Strategic Review vol 1, number 1, Gygax gives a very interesting dungeon generator for solo play. Some of the given tables are concessions to the needs of solo play, but there is much that could be directly applicable to portable to a group OD&D game, as Gygax notes "the levels developed in this manner can often be used in multi-player games. Likewise, keep a side record of all monsters, treasures, tricks/traps, and whatever. If the opportunity ever comes (as it most probably will) you will have an ample supply of dungeon levels and matrices to entertain other players."

Now as regards treasures, there is an unguarded treasure table, but for monsters, we are told to use the usual Treasure Type "with pro rata adjustment for relative numbers".p4

That sounds great, but here is the rub. What number is the Pro Rata adjustment based upon? Is it the maximum number appearing statistic or something less?

For example, suppose I have 50 orcs. Orcs have a # appearing range of 30 - 300 and have Treasure Type D.

For guidance we don't have a lot in OD&D as far as I have found. It looks to me as if the treasure type is meant to reflect a large population, up to the maximum number. In the Holmes booklet we find: "It must be stressed that treasures shown are very large and generally only for use when large numbers of monsters are encountered". and "The TREASURE TYPES TABLE (shown hereafter) is recommended for use only when there are exceptionally large numbers of low level monsters guarding them, or if the monsters are of exceptional strength (such as dragons)."

So going by that I would assume you use the highest number - 300 for orcs. However, when we get to AD&D we get clearer guidence, and are told this:
"Treasure types are based on the appearance of a mean number of monsters of that particular type, as indicated by the “number appearing”. In instances where fewer, or more, monsters of that type are encountered, the treasure should be reduced, or increased, in value." Fiend Folio, p7

The mean number of orcs would be 165.

What do you think?

[mindcontrolsquid]

I can't speak to the "proper" way to do it, but I generally would not do pro rata adjustments like this. I prefer to let the dice fall where they may, whether it be no. appearing or treasure generated. Keeps the players guessing.

[Deleted]

Nov 13, 2015 11:23:13 GMT -6 aldarron said:

Now as regards treasures, there is an unguarded treasure table, but for monsters, we are told to use the usual Treasure Type "with pro rata adjustment for relative numbers".p4

I will point out that the same tables in AD&D do not use the Treasure Types, instead using the level-based treasure table V.G (page 171).

However, adjusting by mean seems reasonable. I'd adjust the probabilities before rolling though.

[derv]

Nov 13, 2015 11:23:13 GMT -6 aldarron said:

Now as regards treasures, there is an unguarded treasure table, but for monsters, we are told to use the usual Treasure Type "with pro rata adjustment for relative numbers".p4

That sounds great, but here is the rub. What number is the Pro Rata adjustment based upon? Is it the maximum number appearing statistic or something less?

Well, if any of the discussion in the other thread that suggests M&T's tables are really for domain level play is to be accepted, these treasure hoards might be understood to be connected to party size (i.e. armies 100+), monster type and level, and PC level (name level characters building strongholds).

I hope this is worked on a little more. Basically, this is part of what I was questioning in the other thread. I think there is a solution to be found.

Just some random thoughts, since the numbers generated for number appearing of normal monsters is d10, I think I would use the median of the high limit and my pro rata reductions would be about 5% per 10 men fewer occurring. So, 50 orcs would be a reduction of 50%.

For fantastic creatures the reduction would be per man and probably at about 10% per.

[Deleted]

Do it how you like.

In my opinion the outdoor treasure tables are far too rich for a dungeon.

But you're designing your own dungeon, not mine.

[Zenopus]

I would look at the Monster & Treasure Assortments (which are an OD&D product) for guidance on what Gygax thought was appropriate to dungeon encounters, at least as of their publication (1976-1977). (I realize, of course, his thoughts may have changed from the time of the original booklets.)

Following the sentence that aldarron quoted above that starts "The TREASURE TYPE TABLES...", the Holmes rulebook then says "A good guide to the amount of treasure any given monster should be guarding is given in the MONSTER & TREASURE ASSORTMENTS" which are included in the game. This entire paragraph is not in the Manuscript, so it gives a good insight into Gygax's thoughts on this topic circa 1977.

I posted some analysis of the 1st level of the M&TA tables here, including the average amount of treasure per encounter (318 GP, if my math was correct).