High Level/End Game Play?

[rastusburne]

My experience, with any edition of D&D, has mainly revolved around characters of 1st-5th level. Either the campaign loses momentum...or...we just begin something new.

For those who play longer campaigns where OD&D characters may hit levels 10+ how long does this usually take, and how do you handle the upper levels? Do the characters keep adventuring, or do they settle a keep or stronghold? Is there really a need for character levels beyond 10th? I conceptualise characters of levels 10+ as being pretty much the epitome of power within an OD&D world/system. By that stage I'm imagining a lot of them are pretty much legendary in their own right, and retire for another group of lower levels to take their place. But I'm also interested in making an exciting and convincing high level/end game style.

So the questions are:

— Do you play characters beyond say, 10th level (or the "limits" provided in Men & Magic)?
— How long does it take for a character to achieve the upper limits of character progression (in real time assuming a weekly game of 3-4 hours)?
— Assuming you have higher level characters in your games, what do they get up to?

I ask for two reasons. Firstly, I'm working on a supplement thing of new monsters and character classes. I have about 15 so far including some of the classics, but I've been toying with adding higher levels.I kind of like the lower "limits" set forth in Men & Magic (between 8-13ish from memory), but I'm interested in opinions. Secondly, in my current campaign I want to keep a step ahead of the players and have upper levels mapped out if I think it's worthwhile or likely they will get there.

Cheers!

[Deleted]

First, there are no limits in OD&D. The charts only go so far, but it CLEARLY states there is no limit how far characters can advance. (page 18)

However, since XP comes from gold actual advancement is self limiting. A 12th level fighter needs 240,000 XP to go from 12th to 13th level (over name level for all classes, it's the total to reach name level for each level past name... 240,000 for Lord, plus 240,000 to go from 9th level Lord to 10th, plus 240,000 to go from 10th to 11th, etc). At some point there simply isn't enough gold.

So the game shifts. You are now one of the Great and you enter a whole new level of existence. Gary loved Lovecraft, and the real nasties came out at higher levels.

Also, make sure players have castles and lands. Take wargamers, give them each a castle and an army, and stand back.

[rastusburne]

Can you provide some examples of higher level play from your own games? How many of your campaigns have reached that point?

I'm aware there are no true limits regarding levels, which was why "limits" in inverted commas. Although there are no theoretical limits, it seems that most of my games have fit within these level ranges.

[Deleted]

I've been thinking about the relationship between name level (aka the End Game) and campaigns, such as early Greyhawk, that didn't have a fixed party of equal level characters. For one thing, because death is a possibility, achieving name level would be an actual accomplishment rather than, as today, simply the inevitable result of campaign length.

So you'll have various players getting characters up to name level all at different times. When the first character makes the first stronghold, his character will carve out his own little area of the game world and build his own town. From this point on, the characters of the other players can travel to his castle, meet up at his tavern, and explore the area around his stronghold. Even when the name level PC's player can't make a session, his character is still having an effect on the game. Even if that player never plays again, his character is part of the setting for all characters that come along later.

Which I why I look at name level not as the end game, but as a win state. The point at which your character has finally proven his worth and become part of the game world itself.

This is probably me just romanticizing the whole thing.


As for whether or not to stop playing at 10th or 12th level, I don't see why. To me that is like trying to decide the point at which the game will no longer be fun before a single die hits the table top.

[scottyg]

Right now I am DMing a party of 4th -5th level characters. There are also two survivors from a party that began about 15 years ago: a 13th level M-U and a 10th level cleric. Occasionally they will adventure together, but usually it's one + henchmen. Neither of them have strongholds, but the magic-user has made several I'll-fated attempts. He's adventuring now to finance another attempt.

[Porphyre]

Oct 30, 2015 5:20:06 GMT -6 scottyg said:

 Neither of them have strongholds, but the magic-user has made several I'll-fated attempts. He's adventuring now to finance another attempt.

Out of curiosity : what happened ? 

[scottyg]

The way things have traditionally worked in my campaign is that we start a new game with 1st level characters. They adventure together exclusively till about 4th level. Around then some players will start looking for henchmen, and may try a side jaunt with their henchmen, or maybe a smaller party, but the core party is still the main thrust of the gaming. At about 8th level there is a pretty big shift. When I am DMing newer players, they tend to have a party for life mindset, but the players that have been around a while are ready to go their own way with their followers, and only occasionally get back together with a larger player party for some major undertaking.
In one recent adventure a magic-user took his henchmen into a dungeon. They got their asses kicked and the player and most of his henchmen were dead/trapped. His apprentice teleported out. Found another PC and his henchmen, returned to the dungeon, saved the original group, and cleared out the dungeon.
I've never had any full blown player rivalries develop. I've seen a few brewing, always between brothers, but the players never made it high enough.

[scottyg]

Oct 30, 2015 7:18:26 GMT -6 scottyg said:

The way things have traditionally worked in my campaign is that we start a new game with 1st level characters. They adventure together exclusively till about 4th level. Around then some players will start looking for henchmen, and may try a side jaunt with their henchmen, or maybe a smaller party, but the core party is still the main thrust of the gaming. At about 8th level there is a pretty big shift. When I am DMing newer players, they tend to have a party for life mindset, but the players that have been around a while are ready to go their own way with their followers, and only occasionally get back together with a larger player party for some major undertaking.
In one recent adventure a magic-user took his henchmen into a dungeon. They got their asses kicked and the player and most of his henchmen were dead/trapped. His apprentice teleported out. Found another PC and his henchmen, returned to the dungeon, saved the original group, and cleared out the dungeon.
I've never had any full blown player rivalries develop. I've seen a few brewing, always between brothers, but the players never made it high enough.

I think his henchmen were probably not high enough level for proper support, and his expeditionary force was too small. I think we rolled two bad random encounters, and his troops and henchmen took a beating, and he had to retreat back to civilization. On a positive note, he did have an encounter with a flock of hippogriffs, and ended up with six young/eggs.

[scottyg]

In addition to the encounter with the hippogriffs, they fought a large force of bandits. There was one other encounter with some monstrous creatures. I can't remember what they were exactly, but it ended up being a much tougher encounter than anticipated.

[scottyg]

I have an 11th level bard (1E), and a 10th level M-U. I also have a bunch of other low level characters, and I'd happily roll up a new character and join a new campaign, but I'd prefer to adventure with one of my higher level PCs. Retiring them has never crossed my mind. I can never find a DM, but that's a different story.
I look forward to building a castle, casting the highest level spells, fighting for my life against liches or demons, exploring outer planes, etc.

[tetramorph]

scottyg, your descriptions of tiered play really helps me.

The folks I play with in Planet Eris are all 7+ lvl PCs. I am finding it truly difficult to challenge them. But I think the problem is that they all still want to play as a big group. There is just nothing I can throw at them, as a group, that they can't pull some crazy magic item out of nowhere and change all reality in their favor for a moment.

Any recommendations for challenging 4+ and then 8+ PCs would be welcome.

[Deleted]

A lich who commands an army of undead... 8 Spectres, 15 to 20 mummies, 20 to 30 wraiths, teamed up with a couple of hundred gnolls in an underground complex where there are no long lines of sight.

Watch your players cry like little girls.

[tetramorph]

You know, @gronanofsimmerya, that is absolutely right.

The only time I have seen them scared recently was when, on a wilderness adventure, I had a vampire lord invite them to a "friendly" joust within the bounds of his Necropolis.

He had 10 vampire underlings, units of specter and wraith cavalry and zombie and skeleton infantry in hundreds.

They were pretty nervous.

They still shudder when they here the name of this vampire mentioned.

He is going to wind up wreaking some serious havoc upon them.

[Porphyre]

Oct 29, 2015 18:53:33 GMT -6 @gronanofsimmerya said:

However, since XP comes from gold actual advancement is self limiting. A 12th level fighter needs 240,000 XP to go from 12th to 13th level (over name level for all classes, it's the total to reach name level for each level past name... 240,000 for Lord, plus 240,000 to go from 9th level Lord to 10th, plus 240,000 to go from 10th to 11th, etc). At some point there simply isn't enough gold.

Question: did the gold earned in taxes count as XP like the gold acquired in dungeon expeditions? 

[Deleted]

Nope. No risk, no XP.

[scottyg]

Oct 31, 2015 14:55:58 GMT -6 tetramorph said:

scottyg, your descriptions of tiered play really helps me.

The folks I play with in Planet Eris are all 7+ lvl PCs. I am finding it truly difficult to challenge them. But I think the problem is that they all still want to play as a big group. There is just nothing I can throw at them, as a group, that they can't pull some crazy magic item out of nowhere and change all reality in their favor for a moment.

Any recommendations for challenging 4+ and then 8+ PCs would be welcome.

7+ level should not be that hard to challenge. If it is, they may have too many magic items, but even so, it shouldn't be that difficult to challenge them.
Trap them in a demi-plane, cut off from easy outs and where resource management is critical.
Attacks in waves in large areas have been the end of several 8th level parties I've DMed. The low level challenge of the initial creatures got them overconfident. They were otherwise pretty good at fleeing tough encounters. By the time they realized the danger, it was too late. Start with a group of low level monsters spread out enough that they can't be dealt with in a single area of effect spell, and bring in a new wave every few rounds, with tougher and tougher creatures.

[Porphyre]

Oct 31, 2015 16:31:39 GMT -6 @gronanofsimmerya said:

Nope. No risk, no XP.

Fair enough ...