Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2015 18:50:12 GMT -6
I am not now, nor have I ever been, part of the "Old School Renaissance." This is because I've simply never stopped playing the game the way I always have. No rebirth involved.
However, one of the bases of Braunstein, then Blackmoor, then Greyhawk, was the concept of "Free Kriegspiel," where the referee's judgement is the supreme authority, not a set of written rules.
This fine tradition has all but died out. It needs desperately to be brought back.
Therefore I hereby announce the launch of the "Free Kriegspiel Renaissance," or FKR.
And yeah, it's pronounced exactly the way you think.
So come on, let's be a bunch of FKRs!
|
|
|
|
Post by kesher on Aug 17, 2015 20:19:06 GMT -6
Alright then, as the Grand Master of the FKR, give us a rundown on this tradition!  |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2015 21:17:17 GMT -6
Stay tuned.
|
|
|
|
Post by tkdco2 on Aug 18, 2015 1:31:34 GMT -6
That's pretty much how I run my games. And I don't hesitate to remind my players. So I guess I'm already a FKR, although I don't have to be a gamer to be that!  |
|
randyb
Level 3 Conjurer
Posts: 92
|
Post by randyb on Aug 18, 2015 6:26:32 GMT -6
And yeah, it's pronounced exactly the way you think. As the German manufacturer of fighter planes during WWI? |
|
|
|
Post by coffee on Aug 18, 2015 7:49:16 GMT -6
Alright then, as the Grand Master of the FKR, give us a rundown on this tradition! , you're already well on your way here. You've always played that way, at least as long as I've known you. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2015 8:29:48 GMT -6
And yeah, it's pronounced exactly the way you think. As the German manufacturer of fighter planes during WWI? "But dese Fokkers were flying Messerschmidts!" |
|
|
|
Post by chicagowiz on Aug 18, 2015 9:06:48 GMT -6
As the German manufacturer of fighter planes during WWI? "But dese Fokkers were flying Messerschmidts!" Flying or "riding"? |
|
randyb
Level 3 Conjurer
Posts: 92
|
Post by randyb on Aug 18, 2015 9:09:49 GMT -6
As the German manufacturer of fighter planes during WWI? "But dese Fokkers were flying Messerschmidts!" Got it in one. |
|
|
|
Post by derv on Aug 18, 2015 15:57:30 GMT -6
I've watched a couple documentaries on this secret organization. From what I understand, they're along the lines of the Illuminati of the gaming world.
If you really want to know more, the titles of the documentaries were....
"Meet the FKR's" and "Little FKR's"
Really intriguing stuff! Highly recommended.
|
|
randyb
Level 3 Conjurer
Posts: 92
|
Post by randyb on Aug 18, 2015 19:08:02 GMT -6
I've watched a couple documentaries on this secret organization. From what I understand, they're along the lines of the Illuminati of the gaming world. If you really want to know more, the titles of the documentaries were.... "Meet the FKR's" and "Little FKR's" Really intriguing stuff! Highly recommended. Saw the first one. Very entertaining. I don't recall seeing the second one, though I recall being aware of its existence. |
|
|
|
Post by cadriel on Aug 18, 2015 22:05:56 GMT -6
On the serious side, what is the best way to actually get into Free Kriegsspiel? I've found this book that looks like a good start: Verdy's Free Kriegspiel including the Victorian Army's 1896 War GameI found this by poking around on this site: Kriegsspiel NewsWithout having any experience with the genre, it seems like you could run Free Kriegsspiel with a stack of order sheets, three laminated copies of a map, the orders of battle, and maybe some tokens for the umpire's maps (I'm sure you could scrounge those from Avalon Hill games). Beats the hell out of having to paint a ton of miniatures, which has always kept me at a bit of a distance. Sound about right? |
|
|
|
Post by cadriel on Aug 18, 2015 22:20:48 GMT -6
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2015 18:50:53 GMT -6
On the serious side, what is the best way to actually get into Free Kriegsspiel? I've found this book that looks like a good start: Verdy's Free Kriegspiel including the Victorian Army's 1896 War GameI found this by poking around on this site: Kriegsspiel NewsWithout having any experience with the genre, it seems like you could run Free Kriegsspiel with a stack of order sheets, three laminated copies of a map, the orders of battle, and maybe some tokens for the umpire's maps (I'm sure you could scrounge those from Avalon Hill games). Beats the hell out of having to paint a ton of miniatures, which has always kept me at a bit of a distance. Sound about right? That would work. More, though, I'm trying to get Free Kriegspiel back to being the basis of OD&D. The players don't need to know the rules other than certain basic elements. |
|
|
|
Post by Finarvyn on Aug 20, 2015 4:41:49 GMT -6
one of the bases of Braunstein, then Blackmoor, then Greyhawk, was the concept of "Free Kriegspiel," where the referee's judgement is the supreme authority, not a set of written rules. This fine tradition has all but died out. It needs desperately to be brought back. Well said, Michael. You are the Grand Master of FKR's! |
|
|
|
Post by krusader74 on Aug 20, 2015 8:34:37 GMT -6
The Kriegsspiel TriadI think the "thesis-antithesis-synthesis" formula well explains the historical development of Kriegsspiele. Thesis: The "Strict" KriegsspielThe original format of the war-game was spelled out in the book Anleitung zur Darstellung militärischer Manöver mit dem Apparate des Kriegsspiels (1824) by Georg Heinrich Rudolf von Reißwitz, who was developing ideas originated by his father a decade earlier. I can't find a free online copy, but there is a really good in-depth discussion here: Nineteenth Century Military War Games: Lieutenant von Reisswitz’s KriegsspielIn a nutshell, "Strict" Kriegsspiel is (according to von Verdy): "The game with dice, rules and computations." It is rules-heavy. It is turn-based. Combat is resolved OBJECTIVELY through dice rolls. Play usually takes a lot longer than the battles they represent. It is more of a game than a military simulation. Anti-Thesis: The "Free" Kriegsspiel"Free" Kriegsspiel came about because Prussian military officers were unhappy with "Strict" Kriegsspiel--particularly its lack of realism. The game originates in the following short book (all of the remaining historical book sources linked below are public domain, available from Google books on the web, as PDF, and in EPUB ebook format): Beitrag zum Kriegsspiel (1876) by Julius Adrian Friedrich Wilhelm von Verdy du Vernois. There are two English translations of von Verdy's "Beitrag zum Kriegsspiel": "Free" is the anti-thesis of "Strict". von Verdy describes it as "The simple method on a large-scale map, without rules, tables of losses, or dice." In a nutshell: It is rules-free. It is played in real-time. Combat outcomes are decided SUBJECTIVELY by experienced military officers. It aims at realism. It's more of a military simulation than a game. Here is my own quick outline of how you play a game of "Free" Kriegsspiel: - Learn by example. What von Verdy's "Beitrag zum Kriegsspiel" does is to present a highly detailed "actual play" report. It is NOT a rule book. You learn "Free" Kriegsspiel by example.
- Roll call. Each side has many players. There is a hierarchy of command between the players on each side. There is also an umpire and assistant umpires.
- Equipment. A map, dividers, a clock, wooden blocks to represent troops, paper and pencils.
- Rinse, repeat. Most of the game is figuring out which objectives on the map to capture, measuring distances with dividers, calculating movement times, deploying troop detachments, and attempting to get into those positions, as a real clock ticks.
- Real-time play. "Free" Kriegsspiel is not an abstract turn-based system, where games can take much longer than the battles they represent. You play against a real clock. If it would take 5 minutes to send a detachment across a bridge in real life, then that's how long it takes in the game!
- Fog of war. The major complication is that much of what is on the map, including enemy positions, is hidden until your troop detachments make contact with them. Commanders won't have this information until detachments can message it back to them, which again involves measuring distances, calculating movement times and making real-time movements, uncertain about what formerly hidden features of the map will pop up. Once the new information reaches Command, new written orders need to be sent back, which again involves measurement, etc. As I said: Rinse, repeat.
- Diceless. If opposing units make contact and fight, the outcome is quickly decided by an umpire. There are no tables of odds, dice rolls, or rules.
- Post-game analysis. Afterwards, there is a "post mortem" discussion and criticism of what players could have done better.
Synthesis: The "simplified" rulesThe final synthesis in the Kriegsspiel dialectic were the "simplified" rules that sped up game play (like "Free") but preserved the use of dice, rules and computations (like "Strict"). Here is a good, short, simple, English-language book, describing this format of "simplified" war-games: Rules for the conduct of the war-game (1884) by the UK War OfficeThese 1884 UK War Office rules actually look a lot like Chainmail would 87 years later, with tables of odds for deciding the outcome of "collisions" between 3 unit types (Infantry, Cavalry and Artillery): Infantry vs Infantry Infantry vs Cavalry Infantry vs Artillery Cavalry vs Cavalry Cavalry vs Artillery Artillery vs Artillery
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2015 19:01:13 GMT -6
Now use those principles in OD&D!!
|
|
|
|
Post by Finarvyn on Aug 21, 2015 4:18:22 GMT -6
Real-time play. "Free" Kriegsspiel is not an abstract turn-based system , where games can take much longer than the battles they represent. You play against a real clock. If it would take 5 minutes to send a detachment across a bridge in real life, then that's how long it takes in the game! This is one of the elements that I find the most intriguing. The way I ran OD&D campaigns back in the day (and I understand Gary and Dave did as well, Gronan can confirm/deny this for me) was that if a wizard took three months to create a magic item then the character was out-of-game and making the item for that many months in the campaign. Player: "I'm making magic thingie. It takes three months." GM: "Well, it's August so you can have your character back with item in November. What character are you playing in the meantime?" While I've applied this to events on a campaign scale, I'm not sure I've done it on an adventuring scale. Taking five real-time minutes to cross a bridge would add a new twist to the game, that's for certain. It makes me think of those "short rest" things in 5E. Player: "Wow, that was a tough fight. I think we need a short rest so I can spend hit dice and recover some spells." GM: "Okay, guys. Time for lunch, then. Meet you a back at the table in an hour."  |
|
|
|
Post by tkdco2 on Aug 21, 2015 13:18:06 GMT -6
A meal break was often the kiss of death for a game session in some of my groups. I was eager to continue playing, but the others, including the DM, weren't. And since I didn't have a car, and the buses had stopped running, I was stuck in my friend's house (the group usually crashed at someone's house that evening) until the next morning. Total waste of time.
|
|
|
|
Post by Allandaros on Sept 7, 2015 0:08:42 GMT -6
OG, what do you consider the most crucial points of Free Kriegspiel as applied to OD&D, in contrast to say, 'standard' OD&D play? Referee control and adjudication, but anything else (from krusader74's list, or otherwise)? |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2015 18:55:12 GMT -6
OG, what do you consider the most crucial points of Free Kriegspiel as applied to OD&D, in contrast to say, 'standard' OD&D play? Referee control and adjudication, but anything else (from krusader74's list, or otherwise)? Well, I'm working on "The FKRs Manifesto," and eventually I'll link to it. To answer your question briefly, though, I think the most important principle is this: ALL AUTHORITY LIES STRICTLY WITH THE REFEREE.Most especially, text has no authority! So it's not a matter of "I'm the referee, I am overriding this rule;" it's a matter of "I am the referee, I say that the rule is X in this case." It's not "Rulings not rules;" it's "Rulings ARE rules." It also means that "The rules don't cover that" is a complete and total non sequitur; the referee's judgement IS the rules. If the referee says "we are going to resolve this combat using the OD&D alternate combat system," that's the rule; if the referee says "You find Evil the Bad Guy all tied up and you hit him in the face with an axe. He's dead, no matter what level he is" ... then THAT is the rule. You don't NEED special case rules, because "referee's judgement" is ALWAYS the rule. And when Skip Williams' said "The early designers were wrong. It comes down to this: If you want to be in control of your character, you have to have some idea how anything you might try is going to come out. and you can't know that unless you have some idea of how the rules are going to handle the situation. If the GM is making capricious decisions about what happens in the game, you're always shooting in the dark and you have no real control over your character at all. " ...it shows he had NO f**kING IDEA of what he was talking about. That paragraph above is the antithesis of Free Kriegspiel. |
|
|
|
Post by tkdco2 on Sept 9, 2015 1:14:05 GMT -6
I've had several arguments with players who think the rulebook should overrule the referee. Not in my game!
|
|
|
|
Post by coffee on Sept 9, 2015 6:00:26 GMT -6
And when Skip Williams' said "...If the GM is making capricious decisions about what happens in the game, you're always shooting in the dark and you have no real control over your character at all." I think the key word here is capricious. A Free Kriegspiel referee is anything but capricious; he knows his world and how things work there. Sure, magic or local conditions might change things. But in the broad thrust, it works like our world. Gravity pulls things toward the center of the earth, cavalry charges are bad news for massed infantry who don't have pikes or similar, that sort of thing. These are the kinds of things Skip should have been able to figure out if he was fully paying attention. I have, on occasion, not particularly enjoyed the rulings of FK referees, but I've never been able to fault their logic or common sense in such things. But if you pay attention, especially when you get smacked by such things, you become a better player. And when you come up with a brilliant plan to take advantage of a situation, the ref is happy to reward you for it. Because that, too, is how it works. |
|
|
|
Post by tkdco2 on Sept 10, 2015 0:31:31 GMT -6
I agree with coffee on that point. The referee has the last word, but he should always deal with his players fairly.
|
|
|
|
Post by kesher on Sept 10, 2015 16:48:37 GMT -6
And that's the ridiculous 400 lb. bugbear in the room, right? That somehow rules can protect you from an asshat?
The first rule of ANY game should be "Don't play with people you don't like, because it's NOT better than not playing at all!"
|
|
randyb
Level 3 Conjurer
Posts: 92
|
Post by randyb on Sept 10, 2015 18:09:47 GMT -6
And that's the ridiculous 400 lb. bugbear in the room, right? That somehow rules can protect you from an asshat? The first rule of ANY game should be "Don't play with people you don't like, because it's NOT better than not playing at all!" I phrase it this way: "Bad gaming is worse than no gaming." |
|
|
|
Post by talysman on Sept 10, 2015 18:45:35 GMT -6
one of the bases of Braunstein, then Blackmoor, then Greyhawk, was the concept of "Free Kriegspiel," where the referee's judgement is the supreme authority, not a set of written rules. This fine tradition has all but died out. It needs desperately to be brought back. Dyson Logos once proposed that old school supplements ought to be written in such a way that the books MUST be written in, causing the rules to change through play. He was proposing this because he was a bit annoyed at the RPG collector culture and wanted that were automatically ruined for collectors through use. But I was intrigued by the possibility of forcing each table's rules to be unique, perhaps even surprising the GM. For example, if the GM can be surprised by a reaction roll for a monster, why not allow reaction rolls for a whole class of monsters? Perhaps wolves will be friendly towards Chaotic fighters -- all Chaotic fighters -- in your game. Perhaps secretly sprinkling powdered silver in a wizard's drink will temporarily foil the wizard's spells. This still all requires a GM ruling, but the GM's world grows as needed. |
|
|
|
Post by krusader74 on Sept 11, 2015 5:01:09 GMT -6
And that's the ridiculous 400 lb. bugbear in the room, right? That somehow rules can protect you from an asshat? The first rule of ANY game should be "Don't play with people you don't like, because it's NOT better than not playing at all!" I agree: The No A$$holes Rule applies just as much to gaming as it does to business! (Although the term metarule might better describe this idea, than the term "rule.") Quoting from the Wikipedia article: I previously attempted to classify the Top 10 characteristics that make a bad player in the thread on "what makes a good player?" |
|
|
|
Post by krusader74 on Sept 11, 2015 5:30:18 GMT -6
one of the bases of Braunstein, then Blackmoor, then Greyhawk, was the concept of "Free Kriegspiel," where the referee's judgement is the supreme authority, not a set of written rules. This fine tradition has all but died out. It needs desperately to be brought back. Dyson Logos once proposed that old school supplements ought to be written in such a way that the books MUST be written in, causing the rules to change through play. He was proposing this because he was a bit annoyed at the RPG collector culture and wanted that were automatically ruined for collectors through use. But I was intrigued by the possibility of forcing each table's rules to be unique, perhaps even surprising the GM. For example, if the GM can be surprised by a reaction roll for a monster, why not allow reaction rolls for a whole class of monsters? Perhaps wolves will be friendly towards Chaotic fighters -- all Chaotic fighters -- in your game. Perhaps secretly sprinkling powdered silver in a wizard's drink will temporarily foil the wizard's spells. This still all requires a GM ruling, but the GM's world grows as needed. This is a great idea. One of the things I find most appealing about Swords & Wizardry, Delving Deeper and Hideouts & Hoodlums is that they are distributed in editable formats like RTF, DOCX and DOC, so that you can easily incorporate your own changes and house rules and then re-print them. Anyway, there's a similar quote here on Dyson's blog: And going off topic for a moment: Anyone not familiar with Dyson's blog should take a look --- some really great stuff over there! |
|
|
|
Post by Stormcrow on Sept 11, 2015 9:04:15 GMT -6
I have nothing against writing in books, but flipping back and forth between dungeon map and key in a bound book is inconvenient. Much easier to keep the map loose on one side and the current page of the key on the other.
|
|
