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Post by talysman on Mar 12, 2015 13:20:36 GMT -6
I don't completely like the demons from Eldritch Wizardry, and the devils from AD&D's Monster Manual presume you are using the ninefold alignment scheme instead of a simple Law vs. Chaos scheme, plus the whole Outer Planes/Big Wheel cosmology. I wanted my infernal creatures to live in the depths of the earth, no "other planes" required. I wrote about this a lot on my blog, but now I've edited and rewritten the material and added some new stuff, and put it into a free PDF download: Our Infernal Neighbors. Naturally, it's aimed at OD&D and retroclones, but it should be usable with just about any form of D&D. It includes a random infernal forms table that I think is much better and quicker than the one in the DMG. You can roll four or five dice at once, one time, and get a complete infernal creature. Enjoy! |
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Post by geoffrey on Mar 12, 2015 13:37:52 GMT -6
Thanks for that!  You mention therein that you have a Feb. 2011 blog post entitled "Doing without Planes". I can't find it.  Buddy, can you spare a dime? |
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Post by tetramorph on Mar 12, 2015 13:47:58 GMT -6
This looks awesome. I am looking forward to studying it. I am also dissatisfied with EW and 1e demons. I wanted something more simple, more 0e and classic. I made up my own demon generator as well. It is quite a bit less elaborate, but works well for me. Has a "rules lite" feel to it, which I like. Thanks for sharing yours. You always produce helpful stuff! |
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Post by talysman on Mar 12, 2015 13:51:07 GMT -6
(Edit: Oops, this response was directed specifically to Geoffrey, but I crossposted. Should have used Quote...)
I took it down when I planned to revise it, but basically all that material is in the section labeled "Infernal Cosmology". OK, I may have said some other things... mostly just babbling about why I preferred no planes to multiplanes, and references to theosophy and occultism. Nothing really important.
Eventually I want to do a compilation of some material I did on psionics and ethereal monsters other than infernals, and I may have more things to say about the ethereal there, but I keep it all pretty simple, anyways. I also want to do one on godlings, djinn and efreet and how to handle wishes, and I'll probably have a lot more to say about astral states in that. I decided that many wishes are granted by casting a souped-up Hallucinatory Terrain on a victim in an astral state, to trap them in what's basically a very vivid illusion.
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Post by geoffrey on Mar 12, 2015 14:07:24 GMT -6
I took it down when I planned to revise it, but basically all that material is in the section labeled "Infernal Cosmology". Ah, thanks for that. I just read that section, and I agree at least 99%. The visible universe has hundreds of billions of galaxies, each composed of hundreds of billions of stars. Plus the mysteries of quantum mechanics, cosmology, dark energy, dark matter, black holes, quasars, etc. What do I need planes for? Just put a "t" at the end of "plane", and then we're talking.  |
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Post by talysman on Mar 12, 2015 15:44:36 GMT -6
I took it down when I planned to revise it, but basically all that material is in the section labeled "Infernal Cosmology". Ah, thanks for that. I just read that section, and I agree at least 99%. The visible universe has hundreds of billions of galaxies, each composed of hundreds of billions of stars. Plus the mysteries of quantum mechanics, cosmology, dark energy, dark matter, black holes, quasars, etc. What do I need planes for? Just put a "t" at the end of "plane", and then we're talking. Especially if you've got ethereal and astral states of matter... and doubly so if thoughts can become real in the astral state, as I'm suggesting. You can recreate pretty much any of the planes without actually using planes that way. What really ticked me off was the planar interface. Once they decided that there were ethereal and astral planes, rather than states, and they wanted to make the planes distinct from the Prime Material, they had to make weird rules about how those planes connect with the Prime Material. So you've got the ethereal curtain and shallow/deep areas of the ethereal plane, and astral windows. And then you have to figure out how the ethereal and astral planes can connect to the Prime Material without touching each other, and oops! you added those rules about how time passes in those planes and some player might try to exploit 'em, so now you have to fiure out a way to prevent that... when it would have been easier to just say "you can pass through material objects when you are ethereal and astral, and they are hard to detect. And also, you are only semi-affected by gravity when ethereal, and you can travel real fast by imagining your destination when astral." And there, it's done. |
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Post by Porphyre on Mar 12, 2015 16:37:23 GMT -6
I'm glad that the demons and devils came back in the neighbourhood: this seriesof posts was brilliant.
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Post by geoffrey on Mar 12, 2015 16:52:30 GMT -6
Yep. Consider how much of the physical universe that we literally can't see. We can see a mere sliver of the electromagnetic spectrum. Consider weird plasma states of matter. Etc. |
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Post by tetramorph on Mar 14, 2015 16:21:18 GMT -6
talysman, I've finally had a chance to peruse your document. It is really great! I totally agree with you about the 1e crazification of things with planes and a nine-fold alignment system. It is another example of the way in which the evolution of D&D and RPGs was that of developing their own in-grow, self-referential legendaria to match or even drive their own mechanics, rather than trying, in true war-game spirit, to match a given "real world" scenario -- even if it is just the classic legendaria of a culture or novel. So I really I like the way you have done away with that. My favorite thing you have contributed here is your table on pg. 9 for generating infernal "base forms." That is totally rad. And you could really come up with some crazy Bosch frights out of that table! I totally agree that forms should "make sense"! I'm really influenced by my own study of historical theology and philosophy and the classical and medieval cosmos. So I would not use your descriptions of "prime material," "astral" or "ethereal." But I like that you are deviating from later 1e "orthodoxy" on this one. In my campaign the demons are incarnations of fallen angels. They are therefore "watchers," pure, unembodied intelligences until either possessing a subject or manifesting bodily. But I have learned from your point about how their forms should really mean something so, in the future, when I "conjure up" one of these in my campaign I will consider describing them according to the particular vice(s) or rank(s) they are representing. That is so cool and helpful. Thanks!
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Post by desertscrb on Mar 23, 2015 19:12:04 GMT -6
Great job on the infernals and others, like the Saturnarians. You have a wonderful imagination. Since you didn't link to your blog in your post, just in your document, I'm going to post it here for the convenience of others: The Nine and Thirty Kingdoms. You mention on your blog that you're working on a simiar treatise on the undead. Care to elaborate? Thanks again; I enjoyed reading it. |
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Post by talysman on Mar 23, 2015 20:02:24 GMT -6
talysman, I've finally had a chance to peruse your document. It is really great! Thanks! I hope to be be greater in the future. The original posts about the random base forms was not part of the first series, but a separate set of infernal musings. But it seemed like a good fit, and I was really happy with the idea, so I merged it in. Glad you liked it! Odd, though, I was pretty sure I didn't use the term "prime material". I tried to stick to the names of states: material, ethereal and astral. It's very theosophically-inspired, rather than medieval, where you wouldn't have demons becoming insubstantial at all, but maybe becoming a mist or smoke. Great job on the infernals and others, like the Saturnarians. You have a wonderful imagination. Since you didn't link to your blog in your post, just in your document, I'm going to post it here for the convenience of others: The Nine and Thirty Kingdoms. You mention on your blog that you're working on a simiar treatise on the undead. Care to elaborate? There was a series of posts I did based loosely on gronan's description of an old campaign where all the player characters were undead, and as their characters leveled up, they became the next higher variety of undead: wraiths became mummies, then became spectres, then vampires. Their band of undead met another band of undead while flying and had a battle in the skies. Since the GM allowed level drain to work on undead, a spectre would drain a 7 HD vampire, drain 2 levels, and the vampire would become a mummy... which couldn't fly, so it would plummit to the earth, flailing its bandages as it fell. I split the undead into four types (rotting, skeletal, mummified, spectral,) which kind of kills part of that, but otherwise keeps the idea of levels of undead. It's still possible to cross from one type to another, for example a ghoul may rot completely before developing the ability to drain levels and becomes skeletal instead. I changed some things around, especially on the mummy track, which I reworked by assuming that Kharis from The Mummy's Hand (1940) is one of the low-level mummies, while Imhotep from Karloff's The Mummy (1932) is the top-level mummy. Oh, and I added vampire mummys, which transform their decayed forms by invoking ancient spirits of evil. I thought I was going to be finished with the writing this past Saturday, after which I would work on layout. But then I took a break, so I still have maybe a couple pages of writing left to do. I hope to have it all done this week, so that I can start on an ethereal supplement. |
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Post by Red Baron on Mar 23, 2015 22:15:09 GMT -6
Phenomenal bit of writing here talysman.
Well thought out, well laid out, well written, and inspiring.
Typo: in chapter 3; demonic behavior: should read "...prices are simply..." instead of "...princes are simple..."
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Post by talysman on Mar 23, 2015 23:56:24 GMT -6
Phenomenal bit of writing here talysman. Well thought out, well laid out, well written, and inspiring. Typo: in chapter 3; demonic behavior: should read "...prices are simply..." instead of "...princes are simple..." Thanks. I'm going to change it in the text files, but hold off on updating the PDF until I'm certain there are no other typos or other changes I want to make (like, maybe add the table of contents, since it's so long.) |
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Buddy, can you spare a dime? 
