What is meant on p. 10 of M&M in regards to experience?

[jeff]

p.10, under Strength:

Clerics can use strength on a 3 for 1 basis in their prime requisite area (wisdom), for purposes of gaining experience only.

What does this mean? Does it mean that a Cleric can swap 3 STR point for 1 point of WIS at character creation?

[Fearghus]

I as well am curious as to how this is supposed to work for prime requisites. Does the player actually reduce a clerics str from 12 to 9? Or is it just assumed that since the cleric has a 12 str his wis is considered a point higher?

[Merias]

My read is that at character creation, you can virtually swap 3 points of STR for 1 of WIS, without actually dropping STR or increasing WIS, and if you would get a 13+ WIS in this way, you get the listed XP bonus. Note that there is also the rule that no ability can be reduced lower than 9. So a Cleric with a 15 STR and 13 WIS could 'increase' his WIS by 2 points, gaining the 10% XP bonus, but no ability scores would actually change. OTOH, Holmes Basic, which was based on the OD&D rules, does use the actual point swaps, making me wonder if that was just the way most people played back then, or if it was uniquely Holmes' interpretation.

[Finarvyn]

This is a highly disputed point, but I think that the most common interpretation is what Merias stated -- it's a virtual exchange without actually making the swap. In other words, you can use this to create a phantom 7th stat called "prime requisite" that is used to determine experience. It's the way I've done it for decades, so clearly that's my interpretation.

However, some have argued that the swap should actually occur so if you like that notion better you can do it instead. It's not like you would be the only person with that viewpoint. :-)

[Fearghus]

I like your interpretation, Fin. That is how I intend to use the rule.

[jeff]

Thanks for the replies. I've always followed the "drop 2/add 1" rule from Mentzer's basic...but I've never heard of this way of handling it. I like it, a lot more than actually changing scores .

[blackbarn]

I've been doing the virtual PR method lately and like it. Something about permanently reducing the scores you rolled to boost another never felt right to me.

[talysman]

I'm for the virtual prime requisite now, but back in the day, we treated it as a point trade. I believe Holmes Basic interprets it that way, and we can used the Holmes guidelines with the M&M/Greyhawk point listings.

[Finarvyn]

Sept 30, 2014 22:54:10 GMT -6 talysman said:

I'm for the virtual prime requisite now, but back in the day, we treated it as a point trade.

We did it that way at first, too, then finally decided that it just didn't feel right. All it seemed to do was encourage every fighter to be the same, for example, and encourage the "dump stat" as everyone dropped stats just to beef up the one. Once we changed our interpretation to the virtual stat concept, we started having more variety in character stats and liked it a lot better.

[scottenkainen]

In case this develops into a poll, it was always considered an actual point trade in my gaming community too. I never heard of a "virtual prime requisite" interpretation until this message board.

~Scott "-enkainen" Casper

[makofan]

I always read it as virtual swap. Basically, a very smart and very wise fighter used those wits to compensate for a mediocre strength

[Merctime]

Sept 30, 2014 22:54:10 GMT -6 talysman said:

I'm for the virtual prime requisite now, but back in the day, we treated it as a point trade.

Oct 1, 2014 8:05:00 GMT -6 scottenkainen said:

...it was always considered an actual point trade in my gaming community too. I never heard of a "virtual prime requisite" interpretation until this message board.

Yeah, same for me on this point. I used to run it, and thought it was 'supposed to be', an actual point trade. Now that I've gotten back into gaming and 'delving deeper' into it ( ), I truly love and utilize the virtual point swap and the general idea behind it.

[dizzysaxophone]

Oct 1, 2014 8:15:08 GMT -6 makofan said:

I always read it as virtual swap. Basically, a very smart and very wise fighter used those wits to compensate for a mediocre strength

Reading this thread I had it in my head that it was supposed to be an actual swap, but you're explanation completely flipped it for me. That absolutely makes sense! thanks!

[Porphyre]

I always envisioned it as an actual point trade, but that could just be because I came to the game with the BECMI edition.
Althought I tend to see the fact that it is mentioned that no ability score can be lowered below 9 as an indication of a real point swap.

[makofan]

No, they are just using 9 as a baseline, so a 13 WIS is 4 points above average. I really can not see any way of reading that sentence as anything but a virtual point swap. There is no doubt, that in all future editions they just changed it to a real point swap.

[Porphyre]

The actual phrasing is:

"Units so indicated above may be used to increase prime requisite total insofar as this does not bring that category below average, i.e. below a score of 9."

The fact that the rules bar the possibility to bring a score below 9, seems to imply, in my mind, that such score can actually be lowered.

On the other hand, you have the Greyhawk bonuses granted by Strength "not modified by Intelligence"; which seem to imply an "actual" Str score (for bonuses) and a "virtual" Str score (for XP) ... 

(I suppose we  just can hope that gronan will show up in this thread to tell us how they played it back then)