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Post by geoffrey on Jul 27, 2014 14:08:16 GMT -6
Last week I ended-up refereeing a one-shot D&D game set in a module. I intended to use Gabor Lux's excellent Garden of al-Astorion. In spite of having read it several times in the past, it (like the vast majority of published modules) was too wordy for me to be able to use with less than half an hour's preparation. Alas! I love that module, but I just didn't remember it well enough to use it on short notice. Therefore I pulled-out Judges Guild's Tegel Manor. Though I had never refereed Tegel Manor before, I had read it and knew that each dungeon room had an average of only 2 lines of description. Winging such a module was easy! This confirmed...
Geoffrey's Predilection for Tersely-Worded Modules
The dungeon map of Tegel Manor is excellent. It includes a lot of information printed right on the map in the form of symbols, numbered magical portraits, and short phrases. All these things made the module easy to use and fun in play. This confirmed...
Geoffrey's Predilection for Putting More Information Directly on the Map and Less in the Text
The PCs inspected a fine silver tea set. In the set's bowl was a black pudding! Think about that. It was small enough to hold in your cupped hands. They never expected a black pudding (which is typically thought of as man-sized at least) in a little tea bowl. (Unfortunately, the PCs didn't go to the room with a purple worm hiding under a bed.) This confirmed...
Geoffrey's Predilection for Monsters That Can Easily Hide under a Bed
One of the players was 11 years old, and he has been playing since age 9. Already he (along with everyone else) recognized every single monster they encountered: a black dragon, a balrog ghost, the black pudding, a naga, etc. Not a single monster made them wonder what the devil they were up against. I really regretted the lack of fear and wonder when monsters were encountered. Every single time it was a known quantity, and dealt with in a workmanlike manner. This confirmed...
Geoffrey's Predilection for Monsters That the Players Don't Known Anything About
Of course, those are only my predilections.
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Post by oakesspalding on Jul 27, 2014 14:18:35 GMT -6
What level characters did you/should you run it with?
With Black Puddings hiding in tea sets--"Quentin, would you please pass the sugar...AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHH!!!!!!"--and Purple Worms under the bed does the referee have to fudge things a lot so that the characters have any real chance to survive? I guess this wouldn't matter so much in a one shot, but still.
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Post by geoffrey on Jul 27, 2014 17:40:07 GMT -6
We used 6th-level PCs. There was no fudging, and all the PCs survived after adventuring in Tegel Manor for close to 3 and a half hours. There were some close calls, though.
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Post by Finarvyn on Jul 28, 2014 4:49:40 GMT -6
This just serves to illustrate the differences between old and new RPG products.
Older products were short and to the point. Newer products tend to be much thicker and wordier.
Older products often mixed high and low level monsters together. You had to be wary and maybe run, or you die. Newer products tend to concentrate more on balance and offering an adventure that characters of a certain level ought to be able to survive.
TEGEL MANOR is an excellent example of old school. Judges Guild packed something like a hundred rooms into a product that was only a few pages in length.
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jdjarvis
Level 4 Theurgist
Hmmm,,,, had two user names, I'll be using this one from now on.
Posts: 123
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Post by jdjarvis on Jul 28, 2014 11:24:57 GMT -6
I always liked Tegel Manor because while it was really just a dungeon, it was a dungeon with character.
Other then the names of the rooms being on the map (why doesn't that get done more?) I really don't recall there being much else different from standard (aside from being a nice big map).
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tog
Level 4 Theurgist
Detect Meal & What Kind
Posts: 148
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Post by tog on Jul 28, 2014 12:29:57 GMT -6
This just serves to illustrate the differences between old and new RPG products. Older products were short and to the point. Newer products tend to be much thicker and wordier. Older products often mixed high and low level monsters together. You had to be wary and maybe run, or you die. Newer products tend to concentrate more on balance and offering an adventure that characters of a certain level ought to be able to survive. TEGEL MANOR is an excellent example of old school. Judges Guild packed something like a hundred rooms into a product that was only a few pages in length. It also shows a different attitude towards monsters; Judges Guild often had monsters just showing up, as a regular thing in their societies (look at the number of monster references in CSIO), not always bent on slaughter and pillage and not always there to kill/be killed. (Notice too how "evil" NPCs got similar treatment; the Imperial Overlord himself is LE with Good tendencies!) It's often a whole different kettle of Floating Eyes from the "how many XP do I get for killing this" attitude you get from later editions. Sometimes monsters are just THERE, y'know? |
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tog
Level 4 Theurgist
Detect Meal & What Kind
Posts: 148
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Post by tog on Jul 28, 2014 14:07:08 GMT -6
Now that I actually check it, the CSIO isn't as crazy with monsters as I thought it was. Maybe I was thinking of somewhere different. There are at least two inns there run by Trolls, though, as well as trolls working for the bureaucracy (what a surprise, I know).
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Post by geoffrey on Jul 28, 2014 14:10:40 GMT -6
Other then the names of the rooms being on the map (why doesn't that get done more?) I really don't recall there being much else different from standard (aside from being a nice big map). You're right that the name of each room printed on the map is a boon. The words "Bed Room" already practically fill the room for you. In addition, the map has written all over it in various places stuff such as: "Crackling" "Riotous Laughter" "Scampering" "Hissing" etc. Further, many hallways are named right on the map: "Growling Hall" "Singing Swordsmen Hall" "Panting Passage" etc. Over 20 types of symbols are placed on the map. One such little thingie indicates a magical statue, which you randomly roll on some tables in about a minute. Another little thingie has a number by it, indicating that it teleports you to that room number. Etc. Further, numbers placed throughout the map refer to magical portraits. It just seems to me that there's a lot on the map without it looking busy or unattractive. Most maps seem to show only doors and room numbers. The Tegel Manor dungeon map is in a close race with the Bottle City dungeon map for my favorite published dungeon map. |
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Post by oakesspalding on Jul 28, 2014 20:44:20 GMT -6
It also shows a different attitude towards monsters; Judges Guild often had monsters just showing up, as a regular thing in their societies (look at the number of monster references in CSIO), not always bent on slaughter and pillage and not always there to kill/be killed. (Notice too how "evil" NPCs got similar treatment; the Imperial Overlord himself is LE with Good tendencies!) It's often a whole different kettle of Floating Eyes from the "how many XP do I get for killing this" attitude you get from later editions. Sometimes monsters are just THERE, y'know? Now that I actually check it, the CSIO isn't as crazy with monsters as I thought it was. Maybe I was thinking of somewhere different. There are at least two inns there run by Trolls, though, as well as trolls working for the bureaucracy (what a surprise, I know). I don't know. Maybe it's a macho thing. You can't say, "Hey guys, I made a pass at this belly dancer but she turned out to be a 7th level Fighter and kicked my ass." So instead you say, "Hey guys, there are Lizardmen selling pencils at every street corner," or whatever. It's funny. What you said in your first post is exactly how I remember City State. So there must be something to it. So I suspect the point stands. And it's a great observation that rings true about Old School (or at least Judges Guild Old School) that oddly, I've never heard made before. Call it gonzo or call it fairy tale-like, or whatever. But it means that along with running (as an alternative to fighting), you can add negotiating or observing or even just hanging out... |
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tog
Level 4 Theurgist
Detect Meal & What Kind
Posts: 148
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Post by tog on Jul 28, 2014 21:54:15 GMT -6
Hanging out with monsters was a thing back when:
* Phoebus the lizard man and Talbot the centaur in The Rogue's Gallery listing of legendary characters
* Most monsters in Tunnels & Trolls were also statted up as PC races, not to mention Monsters! Monsters!
* Glorantha and their ducks
* Even as staid a rules set as The Fantasy Trip allowed centaurs, goblins, orcs, kobolds, gargoyles, giants and lizard men as PCs
* Most of the races in Arduin could be used as PCs
* Not to mention the buffet of non-humans on Tekumel
* And what SF rules set (beyond SPI's Universe) was complete without alien races?
Speaking of Tegel Manor, look at the Rump clan - full of (now) undead, a lot of which aren't specified as hostile. The original even has a polite Balrog ghost butler! (As well as the balrog butler mentioned in Joe Fischer's article on developing towns in one of the early Dragon issues.)
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jdjarvis
Level 4 Theurgist
Hmmm,,,, had two user names, I'll be using this one from now on.
Posts: 123
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Post by jdjarvis on Jul 29, 2014 8:37:06 GMT -6
Other then the names of the rooms being on the map (why doesn't that get done more?) I really don't recall there being much else different from standard (aside from being a nice big map). You're right that the name of each room printed on the map is a boon. The words "Bed Room" already practically fill the room for you. In addition, the map has written all over it in various places stuff such as: "Crackling" "Riotous Laughter" "Scampering" "Hissing" etc. Further, many hallways are named right on the map: "Growling Hall" "Singing Swordsmen Hall" "Panting Passage" etc. Over 20 types of symbols are placed on the map. One such little thingie indicates a magical statue, which you randomly roll on some tables in about a minute. Another little thingie has a number by it, indicating that it teleports you to that room number. Etc. Further, numbers placed throughout the map refer to magical portraits. It just seems to me that there's a lot on the map without it looking busy or unattractive. Most maps seem to show only doors and room numbers. The Tegel Manor dungeon map is in a close race with the Bottle City dungeon map for my favorite published dungeon map. I'd forgotten about but recall the mysterious sounds noted on the map, named halls are good I've always been an advocate of the hall being more than just a path between encounter locations. When I think about dungeon maps i put on my blog I realize, I don't usually put up the maps I myself use as i use them, I usually post the map so other folks can snag it and use it in their own adventures so they don't include a lot of the picky little details I put on my own maps for my own games....hmmm, I wonder how many other people do that and if it contributes to a boring status-quo of big empty rooms with a number on a map? |
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