What Makes a Great OSR Supplement?

[waysoftheearth]

What are the specific features that make an OSR supplement a good one, or even a great one?

Is length a factor? Cost? Illustrations? Maps?

Is it about writing style? Structure? Presentation? Portability/utility? Or is it entirely about content?

Should the content be specific, or generic? Brief or detailed? Are new/rehashed game mechanics, PC races/classes, equipment, monsters, magic items worthwhile? Or are wilderness and dungeon locales where it's at? Should NPCs/monsters be nameless stat blocks? Or characters with developed relationships and story arcs?

Should a supplement focus on heavenly or campaign level politics? Or the room by room grit of a dungeon level? Or something else?

Basically, what kind of supplement do you wish would "come out" next week?


(I'm interested in OD&D-type supplements myself, but the question is system neutral too).

[Deleted]

Brief presentation so that the user can add things. A good OSR thing should inspire without telling everything.

[Finarvyn]

I think that my favorite supplements look like they came off of a typewriter and look like I could have done them myself. They don't have glossy pages and they don't have full-color art. They are printed in a basic font of reasonable size, have simple line art, and give me the basics without beating me to death with the details. I don't need hard covers.

The CSIO was amazing for that reason. Hundreds of places detailed in just a line or two each. The FFC ranks among one of my favorite all-time game books. Actually, most of the old Judges Guild products were like that.

I really liked the OD&D version of Carcosa for that reason. Reminded me a lot of the LBB.

[Red Baron]

Good margins and spaces to write notes in, but not huge chunks of wasted white space.

Space-wise, a picture is worth about 150-200 words. If the picture can convey more content than 200 words of text, then go ahead and include it. Otherwise, save them for the cover.

Monsters and NPCs should definately not be nameless. Its always easier to replace the names I don't like than have to come up with a good name in a pinch.

[Deleted]

For me the best example I can give you is The Arduin Grimoire, that first volume was a grab bag with a little bit of everything in it and in my mind its only fault was the small font size. Unlike most people, I don't care if it is rough, unorganized and full of flavor. I like that a lot better than things that have had the life and character edited out of them. About 25 to 30% the length of The Arduin Grimoire is fine although I don't mind at all if it is longer, but to me if you have a digest sized booklet that is a grab bag full of life and rough edges about 30 or more total pages in length, that is what I am looking for.

[tog]

Jul 11, 2014 3:21:38 GMT -6 waysoftheearth said:

Basically, what kind of supplement do you wish would "come out" next week?

Ready Ref Sheets Vol. 2.

[kent]

Maps and an ability to write imaginatively are the two most important things for me.

With maps you can tell at a glance if the author has any aesthetic sense and get a feel for the breadth of his ideas by the density and variety of sites, if these places are named well. Does the terrain look plausible? Is the dungeon architecture functional or thoughtlessly constructed as a doodled map rather than a place. I don't like cartoon maps or computer made maps. I like WG4's mix of wilderness and dungeon site. Caverns of Thracia would be the perfect supplement if it had a wilderness map with detailed locations, a few villages and discussion of what kinds of encounters could be expected in the wild. Both WG4 and Caverns of Thracia do a brilliant job compactly setting the scene, Gygax geographically, Jaquays historically. With the best maps, JG Wilderlands, you almost need nothing else.

I have no use for supplements beyond reading them for pleasure because I never use any of the content. No matter how imaginative someone's setting is inside their head if they can't write well it may as well stay in their head. I have a simple binary appreciation for amateur writers - "can write" or "can't write" and I don't read more than a page of a "can't write". It is important when writing fantasy of any kind to concoct a style and to avoid cliche, don't say anything that has been said before. Unfortunately many gamers see it as their duty as a writer to give the reader more of what the community consensus declares 'good', to propagate the well worn shared experience. Imitation is not what I expect when I look for Fantasy

[ritt]

"Personality". Stuff that only could have been done by one specific person and that reflects their unique vision. Vornheim, Aurduin, Carcosa, Anomalous Subsurface Environment, and Scrap Princess' work all come to mind. This is the stuff that inspires me and pushes me to make my own game better even if I don't use the material verbatim.

If it's something that TSR or WotC never would or could have done, that's even better.

[scottenkainen]

Fun. Not too dark. Other than those, I'm good with the "unique vision" responses I've seen.

~Scott "-enkainen" Casper

[oakesspalding]

Jul 11, 2014 12:11:49 GMT -6 ritt said:

"Personality". Stuff that only could have been done by one specific person and that reflects their unique vision. Vornheim, Aurduin, Carcosa, Anomalous Subsurface Environment, and Scrap Princess' work all come to mind. This is the stuff that inspires me and pushes me to make my own game better even if I don't use the material verbatim.

If it's something that TSR or WotC never would or could have done, that's even better.

I think some things can be "unique" without being usable or very good (I would say this about some of the Arduin adventures). Also, it's possible that a particular vision or tone can get in the way by making it a bit harder or more time consuming to use or translate the material for your own campaign. But on the whole I agree. Vornheim and ASE are brilliant, and now I want to (finally!) check out Carcosa.

What/who is Scrap Princess?

[tog]

Jul 11, 2014 17:00:32 GMT -6 oakesspalding said:

What/who is Scrap Princess?

She does the blog "Monster Manual Sewn From Pants".

[oakesspalding]

Thanks, man. I just spent five minutes with the content of her "List of the roleplaying related stuff", laughing out loud (in a good way).

[waysoftheearth]

Good stuff; thanks for the input all. Much appreciated.

[Keps]

All of the pieces parts can be used elsewhere. Unique shop items. Random weather. Unusual road encounters. New Magic Items. Generic, three room caves for small encounters. Common encampment encounters. Lists of unique items found on the dead. All of this wrapped in the familiar D&D look(just like all clone junk) and put out there for free(which is what it's worth).

[waysoftheearth]

Jul 11, 2014 18:44:04 GMT -6 Keps said:

All of this wrapped in the familiar D&D look(just like all clone junk) and put out there for free(which is what it's worth).

I'm an advocate of contributing to the community (and I reckon I've contributed as much free stuff to the OSR as just about anyone), but I think you undervalue what effort is worth.

Paying nothing is great, and the "free stuff" space is arguably the engine room of the OSR. But the old adage You get what you pay for comes to mind. When you pay nothing, you've no right to expect anything. It's hit and miss; some stuff will be great, other stuff not so great. But as consumer of "free stuff" you can't expect anything else.

If you want to set a quality expectation higher than that, then there are many expenses to consider.

Proofreading costs money. Art costs money. Font licenses cost money. Printing costs money. If you've done all that, then you have to have a dollar price just to cover those costs. As soon as you do that you'll realise that making sales costs money too. Fulfillment cost money. Electronic financial transactions cost money. And all that only exists to "decorate" the creative effort of the "product" itself. That creative effort isn't worth nothing; it might have minimal value (if it's mediocre or worse), or it might be invaluable if it's truly a cut above the rest. In theory, at least, the "product" must be at least as valuable as all the aforementioned expenses around it in order to justify their cost.

If you only want the free PDF that's all good, but it's a misnomer to think it actually cost nothing. It was paid for by someone. A "free" PDF is typically funded by sales of another item (such as a hard copy version), or else paid for in full by the author/producer and donated to the community. In the latter case, the author/producer has "spent" time (potentially hundreds or even thousands of hours of work) and often money too that so you can have that PDF for zero dollars.

It's worthwhile, I think, acknowledging that contribution. Suggesting a free/low cost version be available is constructive. Implying that it's "junk" worth nothing is basically an insult to all those who have contributed to the OSR's library of free content.

[Keps]

Jul 12, 2014 19:29:01 GMT -6 waysoftheearth said:

I'm an advocate of contributing to the community (and I reckon I've contributed as much free stuff to the OSR as just about anyone), but I think you undervalue what effort is worth.

My comments are to those who use "Contribute to the community" as a veil for self recognition. You yourself can't help pointing out your "Impressive" track record. While you point out how laborious efforts are, you do it because we all do it. Creating dungeons and filling them IS this hobby. When you're finished and you polish it for others to use, cheers. But if you don't, the game will go on. Most people dislike hearing others boring homebrew chatter, I do. There are thousands of supplements on Drive-Thru that nobody has time to look at and just flipping through it makes it all look the same. The market is watered DOWN. WOTC closing the door for their stuff is fine by me. Any veteran of rpgs on this site creates their own stuff rather than using free "junk". Sorry if I offend, it's just my worthless opinion.

[Merctime]

I'm so glad for the extraordinary efforts of people like Waysoftheearth and Cameron DuBeers. The efforts of these people have brought a variety of the game we all love to me, that I wouldn't be able to afford otherwise due to prohibitive 'collectible' expense. Especially considering I didn't grow up with the variety of the game that is now my favorite, OD&D; Instead, it was mostly AD&D and basic for me as a kid.

In my opinion, Delving Deeper, and some of the other similacra currently available, are clearly stating that you don't have to get what you pay for. They are free, and they are amazing and totally worth it.

Ways, Cameron... Thanks, guys.

I'd pay you both for Delving Deeper any day. Can't wait for the hardback to see the light of day!

As for the OP, I really like stuff that offers new 'play areas' or interesting ways to play in more common areas. Dungeons/dungeon levels, towns or villages, maybe incorporating new tricks/traps, etc... Written sparsely (but with OD&D stats; D6 hit die and damages, etc) but evocatively. Maybe some of the 'same old monster, same old dungeon' type stuff even, but with that author's particular twists or special tricks that I might not have thought up. Alot of the good stuff from Judges Guild comes to mind when I think of things I would hope for in a supplement in terms of the mixture to verbosity and content (well, the JG stuff that is more sparse when it comes to say, room keys and town building keys). Stuff you can either cherry pick from, or just dive in and play as-is.

[oakesspalding]

Jul 12, 2014 22:54:06 GMT -6 Keps said:

You yourself can't help pointing out your "Impressive" track record.

He didn't use that word. You did.

Jul 12, 2014 22:54:06 GMT -6 Keps said:

While you point out how laborious efforts are, you do it because we all do it.

We do?

Jul 12, 2014 22:54:06 GMT -6 Keps said:

Most people dislike hearing others boring homebrew chatter, I do.

Perhaps true. Then again, I wouldn't categorize the content of most supplements (free or otherwise) as "homebrew chatter".

Jul 12, 2014 22:54:06 GMT -6 Keps said:

There are thousands of supplements on Drive-Thru that nobody has time to look at...

Thousands?

Jul 12, 2014 22:54:06 GMT -6 Keps said:

Any veteran of rpgs on this site creates their own stuff rather than using free "junk".

That's demonstrably false, as I'm sure many "veterans" on this site would agree, even ignoring the "junk" slur.

Jul 12, 2014 22:54:06 GMT -6 Keps said:

Sorry if I offend, it's just my worthless opinion.

True.

[Keps]

Jul 12, 2014 19:29:01 GMT -6 waysoftheearth said:

(and I reckon I've contributed as much free stuff to the OSR as just about anyone)

I'm impressed. Seriously. I have to state this more clearly for the sensitive types out there.

[Lorgalis]

I find and use quite a bit of the free stuff that is offered by various OSR folks. In fact, many of the ideas offered in these products and blog posts, have expanded my knowledge and sharpened my skills as a player and GM. This is not a criticism, but a simple testimonial.

[benno]

i want to be inspired through the product's "idea". i value failure more than most. i would rather buy or download a product with a grand or high concept --whether or not it succeeds, i want to see the writer grapple with the idea-- one clearly stated and supported through rules, maps, plot sketches, and/or procedural notes. tell me your goal, introduce the theme or tone, i want to see why you've used the motifs you have. what i look for is not something to run when i'm out of ideas but new ways to approach my own ideas.

i like the seclusium of orphone for it's attempt to capture vanican wizardry, however much it failed to do so. i understood the idea behind the product, i understood why the new rules were there and why the product flowed the way it did. it also made me think about how i would approach vanican wizardry and gave me ideas to evaluate against my own.

[tetramorph]

I like 0e supplements that are like BM and GH in the sense that they are not a complete set of rules to a new game on the one hand, nor simply an adventure module on the other. They expand, clarify and modify rules and make them a bit more campaign specific. That empowers the DM to build adventures with that campaign setting. Or simply to build his/her own similar campaign world. I especially like clarifications and simplifications of M&M. M&T and U&WA seem to stand alone. When folks tinker with the rules, it seems it is mainly M&M that gets tinkered with. Beginning all the way back with the first two supplements. I guess that is because it is the place that needs the most rules clarification. So I like supplements that are about ½ a rewrite of M&M and then about ¼ or so each for rules additions and modifications to M&T and U&WA. The rules that I play in right now fit this description. They are austinjimm's Planet Eris house rules. Google around and you can find a free download. They are really nice.

The U&WA section would be where the more campaign specific rules and setting description would be described. But even there I would want it to be "rules-lite." Just suggestive so that I can build my own adventures within the setting. With that regards, even BM is too descriptive for me. Although, of course, it is awesome and inspires the imagination. Finally, I like it when some new mechanic or game aspect is added that is unique to the campaign.

So, for e.g., I am working up a campaign world that deliberately emphasizes and provides extra rules for the "end game." I am drawing from the ACKS some realm-ruling stuff. I am trying to pair it down and rules-lite-ify it for an 0e feel. That is going in my U&WA section.

Thanks for starting this fun thread.

[doublejig]

$5 for a pdf, no matter the length.
$10 for a book as an ideal.

[Deleted]

Jul 12, 2014 19:29:01 GMT -6 waysoftheearth said:

I'm an advocate of contributing to the community (and I reckon I've contributed as much free stuff to the OSR as just about anyone), but I think you undervalue what effort is worth.

Paying nothing is great, and the "free stuff" space is arguably the engine room of the OSR. But the old adage You get what you pay for comes to mind. When you pay nothing, you've no right to expect anything. It's hit and miss; some stuff will be great, other stuff not so great. But as consumer of "free stuff" you can't expect anything else.

If you want to set a quality expectation higher than that, then there are many expenses to consider.

Proofreading costs money. Art costs money. Font licenses cost money. Printing costs money. If you've done all that, then you have to have a dollar price just to cover those costs. As soon as you do that you'll realise that making sales costs money too. Fulfillment cost money. Electronic financial transactions cost money. And all that only exists to "decorate" the creative effort of the "product" itself. That creative effort isn't worth nothing; it might have minimal value (if it's mediocre or worse), or it might be invaluable if it's truly a cut above the rest. In theory, at least, the "product" must be at least as valuable as all the aforementioned expenses around it in order to justify their cost.

If you only want the free PDF that's all good, but it's a misnomer to think it actually cost nothing. It was paid for by someone. A "free" PDF is typically funded by sales of another item (such as a hard copy version), or else paid for in full by the author/producer and donated to the community. In the latter case, the author/producer has "spent" time (potentially hundreds or even thousands of hours of work) and often money too that so you can have that PDF for zero dollars.

It's worthwhile, I think, acknowledging that contribution. Suggesting a free/low cost version be available is constructive. Implying that it's "junk" worth nothing is basically an insult to all those who have contributed to the OSR's library of free content.

Thank you for this post, I think it needed to be said. I greatly appreciate all of the excellent "free" stuff you and those like you produce and make available to all of us. I will gladly pay (within the limits of my budget) for products focused on OD&D. I personally think, things like character sheets, small 2 page ref sheets and the like along with quality blog posts are great "free" teasers for someones work so that people can get to know the quality of what someone produces. There have been many "free" items and blog posts that have been great grist for new ideas to use IMC. And I like to hear about good homebrew campaigns as an idea source. There are a number of blogs and other things produced for "free" where I would pay money for a pdf collection of that persons work sweetened with a little art. There are many items that I wish I could afford in hard copy because they are so good. I am fine with simple black and white line art and appreciate anything that helps keep cost down, but I have no problem with someone wanting to make money on their work and I for one would not put a cap on it either. If you are selling the hard copy, then I think there should be a lag time before the pdf is available and it should not be "free".

[Deleted]

Jul 12, 2014 22:54:06 GMT -6 Keps said:

Jul 12, 2014 19:29:01 GMT -6 waysoftheearth said:

I'm an advocate of contributing to the community (and I reckon I've contributed as much free stuff to the OSR as just about anyone), but I think you undervalue what effort is worth.

My comments are to those who use "Contribute to the community" as a veil for self recognition. You yourself can't help pointing out your "Impressive" track record. While you point out how laborious efforts are, you do it because we all do it. Creating dungeons and filling them IS this hobby. When you're finished and you polish it for others to use, cheers. But if you don't, the game will go on. Most people dislike hearing others boring homebrew chatter, I do. There are thousands of supplements on Drive-Thru that nobody has time to look at and just flipping through it makes it all look the same. The market is watered DOWN. WOTC closing the door for their stuff is fine by me. Any veteran of rpgs on this site creates their own stuff rather than using free "junk". Sorry if I offend, it's just my worthless opinion.

Fair warning, Dirty. I realize this post is old, but you, or anyone else, continuing to derail this discussion in the spirit of the post I quoted above will have a problem.

We are all aware that micropublishing is both the blessing and the curse of the modern RPG scene; no need to discuss that every d**n time even the possibility of indie publishing is mentioned.

[oldkat]

There is a interesting story going around, about a certain elderly gamer. Don't know if he ever frequented this board, but he is/was? quite active at DF and some other forums for years. He created a little indie store at Lulu and sold adventures, as well as made free materials for the community. He eventually gave up and closed shop.
I've "heard" that by the time the store closed, there were thousands of free downloads(like, over 10K!) grabbed vs around 1200 purchases.
I've "heard" that he got tired of all the pregnant doging that arose from the free-takers that thought it outrageous he should actually be selling products as well.
Meh

[idrahil]

Aug 21, 2014 18:43:58 GMT -6 oldkat said:

There is a interesting story going around, about a certain elderly gamer. Don't know if he ever frequented this board, but he is/was? quite active at DF and some other forums for years. He created a little indie store at Lulu and sold adventures, as well as made free materials for the community. He eventually gave up and closed shop.
I've "heard" that by the time the store closed, there were thousands of free downloads(like, over 10K!) grabbed vs around 1200 purchases.
I've "heard" that he got tired of all the pregnant doging that arose from the free-takers that thought it outrageous he should actually be selling products as well.
Meh

Sounds like Thorkhammer. If thats who you are talking about I was a fan of his stuff. Some stuff was like $2, some was $5 some was free. His one adventure "In Search of the Forgotten City" is one of my favorite OSR products. It is a continuation of the Holmes intro dungeon.

What was interesting about his stuff was that not only was he providing a setting or adventure....I got the sense I was actually at his table. That's hard to pull off.

When he announced he was shutting down his store I asked if he would sell me his 2 sequels to 'In Search of the Forgotten City', he just gave them to me. All in all I must have 15+ "products" from him and spent like 12-15 bucks at his store. Most everything was free. He had some stuff he charged more for like his Giant series.

Anyways, its a shame he got discouraged.

As to the OP, I like a few good art pieces included, a clean map that is keyed correctly and somewhat brief descriptions. Meaning, I don't mind a lengthy description if there is alot to be said....but avoid "prose". Stuff like "The air is heavy with the sorrow of the lost sould who perished long ago in a galazy far, far away. Their former joy in life, shimmers in the dust motes in the air." is best left out.

[Deleted]

Aug 21, 2014 19:45:00 GMT -6 idrahil said:

Aug 21, 2014 18:43:58 GMT -6 oldkat said:

There is a interesting story going around, about a certain elderly gamer. Don't know if he ever frequented this board, but he is/was? quite active at DF and some other forums for years. He created a little indie store at Lulu and sold adventures, as well as made free materials for the community. He eventually gave up and closed shop.
I've "heard" that by the time the store closed, there were thousands of free downloads(like, over 10K!) grabbed vs around 1200 purchases.
I've "heard" that he got tired of all the pregnant doging that arose from the free-takers that thought it outrageous he should actually be selling products as well.
Meh

Sounds like Thorkhammer. If thats who you are talking about I was a fan of his stuff. Some stuff was like $2, some was $5 some was free. His one adventure "In Search of the Forgotten City" is one of my favorite OSR products. It is a continuation of the Holmes intro dungeon.

What was interesting about his stuff was that not only was he providing a setting or adventure....I got the sense I was actually at his table. That's hard to pull off.

When he announced he was shutting down his store I asked if he would sell me his 2 sequels to 'In Search of the Forgotten City', he just gave them to me. All in all I must have 15+ "products" from him and spent like 12-15 bucks at his store. Most everything was free. He had some stuff he charged more for like his Giant series.

Anyways, its a shame he got discouraged.

As to the OP, I like a few good art pieces included, a clean map that is keyed correctly and somewhat brief descriptions. Meaning, I don't mind a lengthy description if there is alot to be said....but avoid "prose". Stuff like "The air is heavy with the sorrow of the lost sould who perished long ago in a galazy far, far away. Their former joy in life, shimmers in the dust motes in the air." is best left out.

If it is Thorkhammer you are speaking of it is a terrible shame he got discourage. He produced high quality stuff and has every right to charge for it. I personally think it is completely out of line for anyone to complain about someone charging for things that they have produced. No one is obligated to give there work away.